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Old 13.02.2017, 21:02
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Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

Hello All,

Here is my complicated question

Myself (US citizen) and my wife (EEA National) are planning to travel and work in Switzerland and spend couple of years there.

My wife is a Nurse and planning to register in Swiss Nursing Board (Does not have a job yet in Switzerland) .

I am aware that I (US Citizen) do not need a visa as a tourist for less than 90 days, to visit Switzerland.

However, my question is:
Can we both travel to Swiss with an intent to find jobs together? Do I get the same status as my wife (EEA national) if she does not have a job or residence and travelling there to look for a job?

Or does she need to have a residence permit (which kind :B or C or L" if any?) before I can accompany her as a spouse?

To Clarify: --Does my wife need a residence permit before a not EEA spouse can join her? --Can a non EEA spouse travel with EEA National and get the same status as an EEA National and look for jobs? --If non EEA national travels with EEA National without residence permit, does the Non EEA National need to have a return ticket within 90 days? --Can EEA National travel to Switzerland without return ticket and an intent to look for job.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my questions.
Thanks in advance and have a wonderful day!
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Old 13.02.2017, 21:04
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

Best to start with your wife checking with the Red Cross if her degree/training is accepted?
Because on that depends whether she will find a job and a job where she will be able to support you
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Old 13.02.2017, 21:11
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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Best to start with your wife checking with the Red Cross if her degree/training is accepted?
Because on that depends whether she will find a job and a job where she will be able to support you
Thanks for the reply; We did that already and her Degree is valid and can be certified... so moving the process to get registered to Swiss Red Cross now..
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Old 13.02.2017, 21:38
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

a) your wife will have to show she can support you financially - either by being employed or have enough savings to call on. If she can then both of you will get permits, hers will be the main permit holder's and yours will be a dependent's one.

b) until your wife and hence you get permits, you coming here to look for a job is a waste of time and money. Unless you have a dependent's permit through her you'll be subject to the non-EU hiring criteria which puts Swiss/EU nationals and others who already have a Swiss permit first in the jobs queue. That criteria is outlined here:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...zulassung.html

With a dependent's permit that hiring criteria doesn't apply. Even so, if she doesn't have a job before you both move here then you'll both only get a 3 month L permit if you register as being residents straightaway. Many employers now ask for B or C permit applicants only so it would still be difficult to find a job yourself.

c) do your wife and/or you speak a Swiss language? She will find it difficult to get work here if she doesn't. You may as well depending on what skills/experience to have to offer any employer.

Note that you don't have to register as being residents immediately, but it will have drawbacks. An EU national can be here for up to 3 months without registering to look for work, but obviously that would put you in the non-EU hiring criteria problem. And if you don't have sufficient funds for another 3 months on an L permit then it simply won't be issued to you and you'll both have to leave the country. The general figure to work to is CHF100 per person per day so you're looking at around CHF18,000 to cover 2 people for the first 3 months and a similar sum for the 2nd 3 months.
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Old 13.02.2017, 22:03
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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Thank you Medea!

--She can support me financially for 3 months till she finds a job
-- We are both working on German and trying to pass B2 and then travel to Switzerland
--She can look for a job when she gets there (or may be secure it before we move if possible). For me, the plan was to get the visa status from her and then I will be eligible for labor market as well. So I am not trying to go there and look for job without any permit/residency status (that would be absurd and waste of time and money as you mentioned).

I thnk the best option is for her to get registered and secure a job and then we both move there...
Thanks again for the detailed reply!
Thank you Medea!

--She can support me financially for 3 months till she finds a job
-- We are both working on German and trying to pass B2 and then travel to Switzerland
--She can look for a job when she gets there (or may be secure it before we move if possible). For me, the plan was to get the visa status from her and then I will be eligible for labor market as well. So I am not trying to go there and look for job without any permit/residency status (that would be absurd and waste of time and money as you mentioned).

I think the best option is for her to get registered and secure a job and then we both move there...
Thanks again for the detailed reply!
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Old 13.02.2017, 22:39
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

She will need a minimum of B2 if she wants to work in a hospital environment.
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Old 13.02.2017, 23:13
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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Thank you Medea!

--She can support me financially for 3 months till she finds a job
-- We are both working on German and trying to pass B2 and then travel to Switzerland
--She can look for a job when she gets there (or may be secure it before we move if possible). For me, the plan was to get the visa status from her and then I will be eligible for labor market as well. So I am not trying to go there and look for job without any permit/residency status (that would be absurd and waste of time and money as you mentioned).

I think the best option is for her to get registered and secure a job and then we both move there...
Thanks again for the detailed reply!
Hi there.

I don't want to burst you bubble, but this seems like a bit of a risky plan.

Firstly what languages does your wife speak? If she doesn't speak very very good French, German or Italian then she won't even get her qualifications recognised, never mind find a job.

I doubt you will get a dependant permit until your wife has a job, they are unlikely to issue a dependant permit if you only have enough money to last 3 months. You could come as a tourist for 3 months, but if she hadn't got a job by then you'd have a problem.

I wouldn't move here without a job, Switzerland is incredibly expensive.

Job hunting in Switzerland can be a long process, 3 months is not a long time to secure a job here.

Any particular reason why you're set on Switzerland?
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Old 14.02.2017, 00:19
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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Hi there.

I don't want to burst you bubble, but this seems like a bit of a risky plan.

Firstly what languages does your wife speak? If she doesn't speak very very good French, German or Italian then she won't even get her qualifications recognised, never mind find a job.

I doubt you will get a dependant permit until your wife has a job, they are unlikely to issue a dependant permit if you only have enough money to last 3 months. You could come as a tourist for 3 months, but if she hadn't got a job by then you'd have a problem.

I wouldn't move here without a job, Switzerland is incredibly expensive.

Job hunting in Switzerland can be a long process, 3 months is not a long time to secure a job here.

Any particular reason why you're set on Switzerland?
Thanks for your response:
Since we are still planning and trying to find the best way, we are both learning German and aiming to pass B2 within a year before we move.

Wife will get a year to learn German and then register to Swiss Red Cross.

Why Swiss? ... well we have seen the US system and willing to try a newer country in Europe which has better standards than US. I feel CH will be a better option and if it doesn't work out then we can come back to US anytime.

My major question is when she gets a job and I get the similar status to access labor market as her, will I be considered third national on the list of priority for job offerings or similar status as Swiss and EU nationals?

I am asking this coz the employer has to prove they did due diligence and didn't find a better resource within Swiss/EU and hence hiring third nation resource...

If I am granted same priority as Swiss/EU nationals then finding a job should be fairly easy in IT.

Please share your thoughs.
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Old 14.02.2017, 00:27
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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If I am granted same priority as Swiss/EU nationals then finding a job should be fairly easy in IT.

Please share your thoughs.
Can't help with permit questions, I'm afraid... but just a comment on the above.

Depending on what you do in IT, you might be in for something of a shock. Many companies have severely cut back on IT staff, either via automation or moving large numbers of jobs to lower cost countries. Some jobs remain, especially in highly skilled niche areas - but you should understand what has been happening in recent years and plan your job search accordingly.
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Old 14.02.2017, 00:39
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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Can't help with permit questions, I'm afraid... but just a comment on the above.

Depending on what you do in IT, you might be in for something of a shock. Many companies have severely cut back on IT staff, either via automation or moving large numbers of jobs to lower cost countries. Some jobs remain, especially in highly skilled niche areas - but you should understand what has been happening in recent years and plan your job search accordingly.
Thanks for your 2 cents!! Will keep that in mind.
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Old 14.02.2017, 07:35
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

As I said, with a dependent's permit the non-EU hiring criteria will not apply. Which is why your wife needs to find a job first. If you don't have a dependent's permit the non-EU hiring criteria will apply.

However, another thing you and she need to consider is that as a US citizen you're obliged to continued to file US tax returns no matter where you live in the world. This is because the US taxes based on citizenship and not on residency as the rest of the world does. If she holds a Green Card this also applies to her. Start researching this here:

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...-aliens-abroad

It will also make getting a bank account difficult for you and her too if you have a joint account. You/she would need to sign W-9 forms to allow the bank to send the account info on to the IRS. She can avoid this (assuming no Green Card) if you have separate accounts rather than a joint one, but you can't avoid it. No sign W-9, no account. Also if your account comes to more than the aggregate figure of $10,000 at any time of the year it also has to be reported on an FBAR form which again details where the account is held and how much is in the account.
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Old 14.02.2017, 17:36
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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As I said, with a dependent's permit the non-EU hiring criteria will not apply. Which is why your wife needs to find a job first. If you don't have a dependent's permit the non-EU hiring criteria will apply.

However, another thing you and she need to consider is that as a US citizen you're obliged to continued to file US tax returns no matter where you live in the world. This is because the US taxes based on citizenship and not on residency as the rest of the world does. If she holds a Green Card this also applies to her. Start researching this here:

https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...-aliens-abroad

It will also make getting a bank account difficult for you and her too if you have a joint account. You/she would need to sign W-9 forms to allow the bank to send the account info on to the IRS. She can avoid this (assuming no Green Card) if you have separate accounts rather than a joint one, but you can't avoid it. No sign W-9, no account. Also if your account comes to more than the aggregate figure of $10,000 at any time of the year it also has to be reported on an FBAR form which again details where the account is held and how much is in the account.
Thank you for bringing the tax situation up. We are both US Citizens and she has a dual citizenship. We are fine paying taxes (if any) since its just a test to see if we will like CH and live there, else we will come back after a year or 2. I thought, upto 90K, income is tax free but will check again. Tax situation doesn't bother us since we will maintain an active account in US and trying to maintain US citizenship as well.

My only concern is for me to have residence permit when we move there and seems like she absolutely needs to have a job offer in hand before we move.

Me travelling there as a tourist and then applying for a status change as a family reunion under my wife (while in Switzerland); is that doable or legal?

On the other hand, if she goes there by herself and gets a residence permit and then I travel there, do I need any visa as US citizen (for family reunion of EU national)?
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Old 14.02.2017, 17:46
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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My only concern is for me to have residence permit when we move there and seems like she absolutely needs to have a job offer in hand before we move.

Me travelling there as a tourist and then applying for a status change as a family reunion under my wife (while in Switzerland); is that doable or legal?

On the other hand, if she goes there by herself and gets a residence permit and then I travel there, do I need any visa as US citizen (for family reunion of EU national)?


Better read up first on the issues US Americans have here, trying to open a bank account for example, as there is a lot of paper work involved.


Coming here as a tourist and than staying here through family reunion is not a good idea. Swiss authorities do not like it when you try to bend the rules....!


And yes, youŽd need a visa to enter the country.


Check the threads on Permits, a lot of information was already given.
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Old 14.02.2017, 17:50
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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...I thought, upto 90K, income is tax free but will check again...
You're thinking of the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE). Even if you don't owe any tax to Uncle Sam, you do have to file.
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Old 14.02.2017, 18:00
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

You don't have to try to maintain your US citizenship, you're stuck with it for life now unless you decide to renounce it or commit treason.

This is the way it's supposed to work for you. Your wife applies for family reunification either at the Swiss embassy/consulate nearest to where you live or when she gets a job here if she's moved first. You in both cases are supposed to apply for a Type D visa which allows you to enter Switzerland long term, i.e. for more than the 90 day tourist limit. Arriving as a tourist and then applying may work or may not, it entirely depends on which canton you end up in and whether the person you deal with at the cantonal migration office is feeling kind. If feeling kind they may let you do without the Type D visa, if they're not you could be told to leave Switzerland, go to another EU country to apply and wait for the visa there. In the worst case, they may tell you to go back to the US and do it there.
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Old 14.02.2017, 20:06
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

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.......finding a job should be fairly easy in IT.
If you have a very sought-after skill, you may be right. Otherwise, you'll be way down the pecking order after Swiss, then EU, EEA... plus you're at a further disadvantage if your German/French or Italian isn't good enough for work. And a lot of IT roles are being offshored to Tallinn and India etc. Sorry if that sounds negative but best that you're aware. There are plenty of people here now looking for those same vacancies as their own positions have vanished. So have a Plan B, Plan C, and plenty of savings.
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Old 18.02.2017, 18:20
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

Well I disagree about the status of Non-EU family member of EU. Non-EU family member derives the right from the EU family member. There is no where written that non-EU direct family member of an EU citizen can only work after the EU citizen gets a job.

So in the first three months both non-EU and EU can enter Switzerland and there is no question asked. For eg check the shenanigan visa form. There are some question where it is marked as * and it categorically tell than Non-EU family member don't have to fill those information.

Now about the question of can non-EU work in the initial first three months and the answer is YES. Non-EU derives the right from EU family member. Since the EU member has all the right to work in Switzerland their non-EU spouse derives that right. The moment non-EU family gets a job they can apply for the VISA as self sufficient.


That is the rule of EU free movement. Switzerland even though not an EU member as accepted all these rules. Similarly other EU country gives the same right to Swiss national when they go to work in UK, Germany or France etc.

Family member of EU nationals don't come in the Non-Swiss category as the family member derives the right from the EU national. Only problem arise if you fall into social security help , in that case your VISA will be rejected.

100 CHF per day is not the minimum money for self sufficiency. It is case by case basis and I have not seen in any documentation that 100CHF is minimum.

Last edited by EUMember; 18.02.2017 at 18:45.
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Old 18.02.2017, 18:31
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

Check this link

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...nnachzug-e.pdf

Access to the labour market

Regardless of their nationality, persons who come to Switzerland by virtue of family reunification have the right to seek employment anywhere in Switzerland and in the branch of their choice. They may also work in a self-employed capacity.


The above mentioned statement is true when you enter switzerland through your shenigan visa. Please have a look at the Shenigan visa document

Thanks
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Old 18.02.2017, 18:46
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

Good luck with that plan as a non-EU married to an EU when trying to get a job. Until the permits are applied for and received no employer will touch a non-EU national. And no they won't avoid the non-EU hiring hassle, how could they? Just by saying they're married to an EU national? Yeah, that'll work really well. Without a permit, being married to an EU national means nothing when it comes to employment. Once the permit is received however, then yes the hassle goes away and a non-EU national is just the same as a Swiss/EU national when it comes to employment.

No one said the CHF100 per person per day was the minimum, just the general rule to work to. Some cantons may decide less, others more, but it's a guideline figure.

This from the SEM website for foreign visitors:

"Foreign nationals who remain in Switzerland at their own expense must be able to demonstrate that they have enough financial resources to cover at least CHF 100 per day of their stay. The reference amount for students with a valid student permit is CHF 30 per day."

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ise/faq.html#1. General information on entry and visa procedures

Makes sense that a similar figure would be a good guide for people coming here job hunting.
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Old 18.02.2017, 19:29
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Re: Can EU national bring non EU spouse without residence permit or job?

As far as I understand there are two immigration rule each EU country follows. One is the national immigration rule and other is EU immigration rule. EU immigration rule apply to those EU citizen when they move and exercise their right in other EU member state of which they are not the citizen. For Eg a French moving to UK, a UK citizen moving to Autria, or a Swiss citizen moving to Denmark or portugese citizen moved to Switzerland.

When a EU citizen moves to another EU state to exercise their right their family members regardless of their nationality will also derive the same right. The host country has to provide the permit to non eu family member.
Now look at this link https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...staetige-e.pdf Under the Jobseeker . The EU national has right to get the work permit from 3 months to 1 year as jobseeker.

As a result their non-spouse will get the same permit. And based on that permit and with self sufficiency non-EU spouse can work even though EU spouse has not the job yet. Check this link https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...nnachzug-e.pdf under Right of family members to stay in Switzerland.

The most important thing to remember is EU national should not be a burden(social security) to host member state else their visa will be cancelled.
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