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  #21  
Old 02.06.2017, 16:39
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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YI think the income is taxable in Germany.
That's the default by OECD standards, but DE-CH Agreement on Doubletaxation (ADT) overrules and inverses that.

Analoguous to a German Grenzgänger working in Switzerland, OP (his friend) will be taxed 4.5% of income at source (that is, in Germany) while Switzerland will raise taxes as if he earned it in Switzerland (though additional deductions may apply), reducing the tax due by the 4.5% already paid to Germany.

Also by default (OECD standards I guess) OP would be in a difficult situation Permit-wise because he spends the majority of days (more than 183 per year) abroad. But not in this case as, again as per ADT rules, that will be ignored because
- distance from home is more than 110km
- apartment abroad is paid by the employer
Each of these points alone would be reason enough to qualify for ADT to apply, together they should make the case watertight. Additionally, for the Swiss authorities a commute of more than two hours one-way would be enough to qualify whereas the Germans seem to accept that criterion only if the time spent (available to spend) at home would be less than eight hours a day.

But of course:
OP, you do want to check this with both tax authorities, and of course make sure you retain the right to a C permit, before you sign anything.
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  #22  
Old 02.06.2017, 16:57
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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He should be fine. I assume Wochenaufentahlter is like having a G (cross border) permit in reverse.
No idea how Germany handles that, but as EU citizen I would think he already has the necessary rights and permits. Incorporated by his passport if you will, so perhaps no additional paper required.
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  #23  
Old 02.06.2017, 17:29
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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Firstly no, sorry but what I wrote is not wrong!

Secondly I never stated that it was legal what she did!

She certainly did not notify the authorities that she was mainly in Ireland and rarely in CH. The permit was definitely not on hold as this would not have been granted for the reason she had to be away. She not only lived and studied in Ireland but also worked there part time and was taxed on her income there. She was legally resident in Ireland as well the entire time.

She was legally resident in CH, her permit did not expire nor was it rescinded because she did not notify the authorities so they knew nothing about her being away! Her residency was thus retained.


As mentioned nobody can know the number of nights you slept in CH or in another country in any given year/period.

You can quote the law as much as you want. But in the case of foreigners, C-permits and other permits in CH what the law states and what actually goes on are two entirely different things and you are unable to prevent this from happening.

It is quite possible to be registered as being resident in more than one country at the same time.
Perhaps so, but if you want to risk being found out and having said permit revoked, then go ahead and do it. I suspect your friend is a non-EU national which is why she was so worried about losing the permit in the first place. And if she had have been found out she probably would have been banned from entering Switzerland for some years and that would also have applied to the whole of the Schengen Area - including Ireland. What would she have done then, eh? Not only banned from the country, but owing back taxes to Switzerland as well. Very clever.

It was illegal and it was stupid. She could have put her permit on hold because of her study, that's a perfectly valid reason to do so. She could then have come back here and found a job with a Swiss employer which may have let her be transferred to Ireland on a temporarary assignment which would have allowed her to put the permit on hold again.

Spinal, part of the criteria for keeping a Swiss permit is that you spend the majority of your time here - 183 days a year to be precise. koblenz's friend was obviously not doing that.
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  #24  
Old 02.06.2017, 17:35
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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Perhaps so, but if you want to risk being found out and having said permit revoked, then go ahead and do it. I suspect your friend is a non-EU national which is why she was so worried about losing the permit in the first place. And if she had have been found out she probably would have been banned from entering Switzerland for some years and that would also have applied to the whole of the Schengen Area - including Ireland. What would she have done then, eh? Not only banned from the country, but owing back taxes to Switzerland as well. Very clever.

It was illegal and it was stupid. She could have put her permit on hold because of her study, that's a perfectly valid reason to do so. She could then have come back here and found a job with a Swiss employer which may have let her be transferred to Ireland on a temporarary assignment which would have allowed her to put the permit on hold again.

Spinal, part of the criteria for keeping a Swiss permit is that you spend the majority of your time here - 183 days a year to be precise. koblenz's friend was obviously not doing that.

She is an Irish national, so no issues at all like the ones you describe.
During the time you are away and the permit is on hold you presumably are not a legal resident and are not accumulating years for citizenship purposes either, right?

And correct she was spending less than 183 days in CH, particularly in the middle years, probably it was more like 10 days per year.

Last edited by koblenz; 02.06.2017 at 17:36. Reason: add
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  #25  
Old 02.06.2017, 17:39
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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She is an Irish national, so no issues at all like the ones you describe.
During the time you are away and the permit is on hold you presumably are not a legal resident and are not accumulating years for citizenship purposes either, right?

And correct she was spending less than 183 days in CH, particularly in the middle years, probably it was more like 10 days per year.
No, you're not because - SURPRISE! You're not a resident here so why should they count?

If she's so keen on getting Swiss citizenship, perhaps she should learn to abide by their rules.
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  #26  
Old 02.06.2017, 17:44
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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No, you're not because - SURPRISE! You're not a resident here so why should they count?

If she's so keen on getting Swiss citizenship, perhaps she should learn to abide by their rules.
So now you have the reason why she did not want to put the permit on hold as she would have been losing out on 3.5 years of CH residency!
Alternatively she could have handed back the C-permit and registered anew when she got back, but then not only would she have lost time but also she would have been back on a B-permit.

As this was in the 2000s, she has long since become Swiss so I doubt she is worried in the least about any of the rules that you continue to repeatedly cite.

Last edited by koblenz; 02.06.2017 at 17:49. Reason: add
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  #27  
Old 03.06.2017, 00:44
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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His CH income for tax purposes drops to zero
Clearly you have not the foggiest idea how tax investigations work! If you send in a zero return or fail to send in anything at all you will be flagged for investigation, simply 'cause people can't live on fresh air!
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  #28  
Old 03.06.2017, 00:48
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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As this was in the 2000s, she has long since become Swiss so I doubt she is worried in the least about any of the rules that you continue to repeatedly cite.
A foreigner who becomes Swiss can loose their citizenship for a number of reasons, one of which is making false statements in support of the application.
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  #29  
Old 03.06.2017, 08:04
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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A foreigner who becomes Swiss can loose their citizenship for a number of reasons, one of which is making false statements in support of the application.
True, but in such cases, firstly the false statement has to be uncovered and secondly there is also a time limit (a certain number of years) by which time it is possible to revoke citizenship. Once the time limit has passed, revocation will no longer be possible, unless there is a change in the Swiss law.
There are not going to be that many cases like that if the time limit is only a few years.


Furthermore this is all highly unlikely to occur in the case of my former colleague insofar as it is not possible to really prove that she spent less than 183 days in CH for over 3 years in the 2000s.

The vast majority of revocations are due to sham marriages by which facilitated naturalization occurred and in any case and for those the time limit is 8 years. I believe the 8 years start from the day that citizenship was granted. In some cases Switzerland actively renders the partners involved stateless for some will have have had to have given up their previous citizenship insofar as their country does not allow dual nationality, others will have renounced their former citizenship voluntarily upon becoming Swiss. International law does not currently prohibit Switzerland from doing this.

I don't know what the time limit is for other reasons for revocation, nor whether Switzerland could/would render a person stateless in those cases.

Last edited by koblenz; 03.06.2017 at 09:43. Reason: add
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  #30  
Old 15.06.2017, 10:30
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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As mentioned nobody can know the number of nights you slept in CH or in another country in any given year/period.
That's true, but, you may be required to prove to the swiss authorities that you were in fact in Switzerland.

This once happened to me - I left the country for 5 months and notified the Einwohnerkontrolle just to be safe, including my exact travel dates. After I returned, someone (erroneously) reported that I was gone for longer than 6 months to the Migrationsamt. As a result, I need to to prove with my passport, credit card statements and flight records that I was back in Switzerland in time. If I hadn't been able to prove it, Switzerland would've revoked my permit right away.
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  #31  
Old 15.06.2017, 20:00
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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Wrong! It only becomes invalid if you notify the authorities of a departure of more than 6 months and they rescind the permit.
You can leave for more than 6 months and retain a C-permit. Nobody can know how many nights you slept in CH and how many you slept in other countries!
I know this from experience. A colleague of mine retained a C-permit in CH for more than 3 years whilst living, working and studying in Ireland. I dealt with all her mail and taxes for the entire time she was away. She did not want to lose the C-permit, whatever the cost. It is perfectly legitimate for your declared income to drop down to zero.
I think you are confounding two fundamentally different things: a permit which is valid, and a permit which is invalid but the authorities does not know.

The law defines that the permit C become invalid upon 6 months outside CH. The permit becomes invalid on the moment when you are outside CH for 6 months, not the moment when the authorities know that you are outside for 6 months and declare that it is invalid. This seemingly minor difference can be huge in legal sense depending on whether it is retrospective.

I take another real example. Country A does not allow double citizenship, and what's more, their naturalization law specifies "the nationality is lost when a foreign nationality is granted" and not "the nationality is lost when the authorities are informed that a foreign nationality is granted". There was a case of someone who wanted to keep both nationality upon getting the Swiss one, by not hiding the information. When he traveled to A, he just used his original passport. Once, he came back to Switzerland and at the last airport in country A it was found that he held Swiss nationality. Then, his country A nationality was judged as invalid, from the moment when got Swiss nationality. Worse, Swiss citizen needs a visa to travel to country A. So his valid passport (Swiss) alone without visa did not justify his presence in the country. Results: instead of just cancellation of nationality and deportation from the country, he was arrested on multiple grounds:
- Using fake/invalid traveling documents to enter the country during many years (his passport A was not valid)
- Being present in the country as a foreigner without a valid visa
- ... basically everything he did with this passport after the moment of Swiss naturalization was declared illegal and got judged in the court

I do not know if Switzerland will (from the definition of the law, they should) take such a strict retrospective approach if one day they find out that the permit is not valid since some time ago, by announcing any activity you did with this permit illegal.

Last edited by happyrobbie; 15.06.2017 at 21:02.
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  #32  
Old 16.06.2017, 12:19
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

On the same topic but in the reverse way, is it possible that a Non EU C permit holder residing in Switzerland work for a contract role in Germany or Austria. He/she will stay in Austria / Germany during the working week but will return to Switzerland over weekends. the family will continue to live in Switzerland and all taxes, insurances will be paid correctly. Is there a possibility that the Non EU C permit holder can lose his C permit in this situation?


The NON EU C permit holder will also obtain relevant work (residence) authorisation from Austria / Germany before taking up the contract.


cheers
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  #33  
Old 16.06.2017, 12:40
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

happy creature, it should be possible and I don't think it affects your C permit. In the reserve case, i.e. you live in Germany and work here then you'd get a G (cross border) permit, but that doesn't seem to apply for the other way around. I think you just keep the C plus whatever permit you get from the other country.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...willigung.html

Whether you'd need to live in the equivalent Swiss part of a border zone I don't know. Best to discuss with your cantonal migration office and the German/Austrian migration offices.
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  #34  
Old 22.06.2017, 08:05
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Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?

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That's true, but, you may be required to prove to the swiss authorities that you were in fact in Switzerland.

This once happened to me - I left the country for 5 months and notified the Einwohnerkontrolle just to be safe, including my exact travel dates. After I returned, someone (erroneously) reported that I was gone for longer than 6 months to the Migrationsamt. As a result, I need to to prove with my passport, credit card statements and flight records that I was back in Switzerland in time. If I hadn't been able to prove it, Switzerland would've revoked my permit right away.
That may be so for non-EU/EFTA citizens, but otherwise passports are not stamped upon entry, so the passport can't be used as proof. Many EU/EFTA citizens have ID cards and not passports anyway.
Not everyone has credit card statements, some still pay for everything in cash (though for me it is the opposite), so again not an optimum solution. But a few scattered transactions on CH sites during the period whilst away may help.

In essences it is still impossible for the authorities to determine exactly if you have been out of the country for more than the six months allowed. Just as it is impossible for them to check if cross-border commuters actually go home at least once a week. Many don't and as a result are de facto residents of CH, they are just not counted in the population figures. You can quite easily live in CH on a G-permit. Many Germany and Italians actually do do this.
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