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-   -   Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH? (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/270649-c-permit-linked-living-working-ch.html)

Nukles 02.06.2017 15:23

Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
A colleague of mine is confronted with a very interesting situation that made me wonder.

He is Austrian, has a "C" Permit and may be offered a job in Munich, leaving his actual workplace of Zurich. The new company would pay for the rent in Munich, leaving him enough money to still keep his family, also on a "C" Permit, in an inexpensive rent in St. Gallen.

If he accepts the job, and works there during the week but comes back to St. Gallen only on weekends, will he still be able to keep the "C" Permit? Will he still be able to qualify for Swiss Residency after 10 years?

Because if the "C" Permit was linked to working for a company based in Switzerland, he would lose that. Yes if that was linked to living in Switzerland or at least going back to Switzerland at least once every two years (as is the condition to keep the "C" Permit), he would not.

What does the law say about it?

koblenz 02.06.2017 15:29

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nukles (Post 2794867)
will he still be able to keep the "C" Permit? Will he still be able to qualify for Swiss Residency after 10 years?

Yes he can retain the C-permit for as long as he keeps renewing it every 5 years and does not announce his departure or transfer his place of legal residence to another country.
On the C-permit he is already a legal resident of Switzerland.

Guest 02.06.2017 15:37

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794870)
Yes. For as long as he keeps renewing it every 5 years and does not announce his departure or transfers his place of legal residence to another country.
On the C-permit he is already a legal resident of Switzerland.


....and providing he carried on paying taxes and social contributions in Switzerland, and continued paying health insurance etc etc and of course, providing his employer was ready to go along with the deceit and pay him enough so he could afford to pay all these taxes and insurances in Switzerland and in Germany.

koblenz 02.06.2017 15:41

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Presumably though he will pay taxes in Germany if he decides to acquire residence there as well. His CH income for tax purposes drops to zero. The family remaining in Switzerland would be paying taxes in CH on what they earn.

st2lemans 02.06.2017 15:42

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
What deceit? :confused:

If he returns home each weekend, or at least twice a month, there is no deceit.

"If he accepts the job, and works there during the week but comes back to St. Gallen only on weekends, will he still be able to keep the "C" Permit?"

Perfectly legal.

Tom

k_and_e 02.06.2017 15:42

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

....and providing he carried on paying taxes and social contributions in Switzerland, and continued paying health insurance etc etc and of course, providing his employer was ready to go along with the deceit and pay him enough so he could afford to pay all these taxes and insurances in Switzerland and in Germany.
good point. given the German tax rate and Swiss costs of life, he must have a pretty good salary.

i would advise to negotiate tax consulting (both inital and each annual tax return) as part of the job offer

Nukles 02.06.2017 15:43

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

....providing his employer was ready to go along with the deceit.
Why would that be a deceit? Is it not living in a Country and working in another while having an apartment in both places?

It would be interesting to know whether to pay taxes in both places or not. I know that for some EU Countries you need to pay full taxes if you live most of the year there (happened at least with many Italian celebrities that paid taxes abroad while spending most of the year in their homeland).

st2lemans 02.06.2017 15:43

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794877)
Presumably though he will pay taxes in Germany if he decides to acquire residence there as well.

In which case he will lose the C.

He must retain Swiss residence to keep the C.

Tom

aSwissInTheUS 02.06.2017 15:44

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nukles (Post 2794867)
will he still be able to keep the "C" Permit? Will he still be able to qualify for Swiss Residency after 10 years?



Yes, because he would be considered an Wochenaufenthalter and he center of life and permanent residence is Switzerland.

I think the income is taxable in Germany.
The other way round is common and lot of information is available. See http://www.wochenaufenthalt.ch/ But in general it is the same just a bit different.

koblenz 02.06.2017 15:45

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 2794881)
In which case he will lose the C.

He must retain Swiss residence to keep the C.

Tom

He will only lose the C if he actually notifies a departure to the CH authorities.

aSwissInTheUS 02.06.2017 15:47

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794877)
Presumably though he will pay taxes in Germany if he decides to acquire residence there as well. His CH income for tax purposes drops to zero. The family remaining in Switzerland would be paying taxes in CH on what they earn.

in Switzerland the familiy is taxed as one entity. If you do such stupid shenigans as to pretend that you only have one, the Swiss residence, then all wordwide income is taxable. no income which "drops to zero"

Wochenaufentahlter is the proper way to do it. No fraud, no deceit, but still tax problem to be sorted and to be aware off.

koblenz 02.06.2017 15:52

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Urs Max (Post 2794892)
usually it's the other way round (live in DE, work in CH).

The other way around would be a German or another nationality who is legally resident in Germany (or another country) but has a G-permit for CH and is employed in CH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aSwissInTheUS (Post 2794884)
in Switzerland the family is taxed as one entity.

Not always. If the family consists of a grandmother, an aunt and a nephew then I believe they will be taxed separately.
It is not specified in the OP's first post if it is a wife and children etc.

Medea Fleecestealer 02.06.2017 15:54

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794883)
He will only lose the C if he actually notifies a departure to the CH authorities.

No, it would also become invalid if he leaves Switzerland for more than 6 months. But that's not likely in this scenario.

He should be fine. I assume Wochenaufentahlter is like having a G (cross border) permit in reverse. :)

Urs Max 02.06.2017 15:54

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794883)
He will only lose the C if he actually notifies a departure to the CH authorities.

He won't because he doesn't.

koblenz 02.06.2017 15:57

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2794895)
No, it would also become invalid if he leaves Switzerland for more than 6 months.

Wrong! It only becomes invalid if you notify the authorities of a departure of more than 6 months and they rescind the permit.
You can leave for more than 6 months and retain a C-permit. Nobody can know how many nights you slept in CH and how many you slept in other countries!
I know this from experience. A colleague of mine retained a C-permit in CH for more than 3 years whilst living, working and studying in Ireland. I dealt with all her mail and taxes for the entire time she was away. She did not want to lose the C-permit, whatever the cost. It is perfectly legitimate for your declared income to drop down to zero.

Medea Fleecestealer 02.06.2017 16:15

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794898)
Wrong! It only becomes invalid if you notify the authorities of a departure of more than 6 months and they rescind the permit.
You can leave for more than 6 months and retain a C-permit. Nobody can know how many nights you slept in CH and how many you slept in other countries!
I know this from experience. A colleague of mine retained a C-permit in CH for more than 3 years whilst living, working and studying in Ireland. I dealt with all her mail and taxes for the entire time she was away. She did not want to lose the C-permit, whatever the cost. It is perfectly legitimate for your declared income to drop down to zero.

Sorry, but wrong. From the Foreign Nationals Act:

"Section 2: Expiry and Revocation of Permits

Art. 61 Expiry of permits


1 A permit expires:
a. on notice of departure abroad;
b. on the grant of a permit in another canton;
c. on the expiry of the term of validity of the permit;
d. on expulsion in terms of Article 68.2

If a foreign national leaves Switzerland without giving notice of departure, a short stay permit expires after three months, and a residence or permanent residence permit (expires) after six months. On request, a permanent residence permit may remain valid for a further four years."

What she may have done is have her permit put on hold which is possible as she was gaining further education abroad.

If she she didn't put her permit on hold however, then sorry, but it was illegal as she was no longer a resident here.

koblenz 02.06.2017 16:22

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2794910)
Sorry, but wrong. From the Foreign Nationals Act:

"Section 2: Expiry and Revocation of Permits

Art. 61 Expiry of permits


1 A permit expires:
a. on notice of departure abroad;
b. on the grant of a permit in another canton;
c. on the expiry of the term of validity of the permit;
d. on expulsion in terms of Article 68.2

If a foreign national leaves Switzerland without giving notice of departure, a short stay permit expires after three months, and a residence or permanent residence permit (expires) after six months. On request, a permanent residence permit may remain valid for a further four years."

What she may have done is have her permit put on hold which is possible as she was gaining further education abroad.

If she she didn't put her permit on hold however, then sorry, but it was illegal as she was no longer a resident here.

Firstly no, sorry but what I wrote is not wrong!

Secondly I never stated that it was legal what she did!

She certainly did not notify the authorities that she was mainly in Ireland and rarely in CH. The permit was definitely not on hold as this would not have been granted for the reason she had to be away. She not only lived and studied in Ireland but also worked there part time and was taxed on her income there. She was legally resident in Ireland as well the entire time.

She was legally resident in CH, her permit did not expire nor was it rescinded because she did not notify the authorities so they knew nothing about her being away! Her residency was thus retained.


As mentioned nobody can know the number of nights you slept in CH or in another country in any given year/period.

You can quote the law as much as you want. But in the case of foreigners, C-permits and other permits in CH what the law states and what actually goes on are two entirely different things and you are unable to prevent this from happening.

It is quite possible to be registered as being resident in more than one country at the same time.

Spinal 02.06.2017 16:30

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Medea Fleecestealer (Post 2794910)

If she she didn't put her permit on hold however, then sorry, but it was illegal as she was no longer a resident here.

Not entirely accurate - you can be resident in more than one country. It does mean you are liable for tax in more than one country, but it's quite easy to be resident in more than one country.

If you fly to the UK for more than 45 days a year (partial days count as a full day = so flying Friday night and returning Sunday night counts as 3 days), you MAY be classified as a UK tax resident (dependent on some other factors, like earning money there, having a place to stay, etc). The more days, the more likely to be considered a resident.

Each country has it's own criteria, and they generally don't care what you do with other countries... if you meet their criteria, they charge you taxes and consider you a resident.

EDIT: for UK residency:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...nal_078500.pdf

I note that the lower threshold has recently been changed to 16 days, which means it's now really quite easy to fall into this..

koblenz 02.06.2017 16:32

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Spinal (Post 2794920)
Each country has it's own criteria, and they generally don't care what you do with other countries... if you meet their criteria, they charge you taxes and consider you a resident.

And if you pay tax in the country where you earn the income and don't declare it in the second country, you will not pay tax in the second country on said income.

Spinal 02.06.2017 16:36

Re: Is "C" Permit linked to living or working in CH?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by koblenz (Post 2794922)
And if you pay tax in the country where you earn the income and don't declare it in the second country, you will not pay tax in the second country on said income.

That's very true - but also, in some countries, illegal. E.g. US citizens need to declare (and pay) earnings from any country (with some intricacies on getting that back). Some countries only tax you on what you earn in their country, some on your global earnings, some on your global assets, some flat rate...

Basically - if you plan on living/working in multiple countries, speak to a good accountant. They're not that expensive and usually recover their fee in the first year in tax savings/efficiency.


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