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Old 23.06.2017, 19:36
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Fined for applying for a B permit

Hello,

I'd like to let off some steam/seek advice/confirm I've not gone completely mad and that the Swiss authorities are just being mean concerning a letter I got from Canton SG Sicherheits- und Justizdepartement today.

It's a long, detailed letter stating every application made for a permit since my arrival in Switzerland in 2009 and that I have been issued with my Ls accordingly based on my au pair, then teaching contracts (Less than a year long at a time. UK citizen by the way.)

I asked SG Rathaus about upgrading to a B permit back in January because I'd like to live here permanently and thought that having an unlimited contract would help me to get one, but I didn't have enough hours to qualify, so I just left it. (Tutoring job contract, ok'd by work, also just wanted the authorities to know I was doing extra work to top up my modest part-time salary.)

My first mistake is not responding to 2 letters they sent me later in January and March stating that I didn't qualify for a B and asking me to provide more hours. I didn't have any more to give them, so I (perhaps stupidly) thought that leaving it be indicated I couldn't fulfil the requirement and no longer wished to continue with the process.

My second error is asking about how to become self-employed (March again, same day I received the second letter.) I was just interested in how the process works, my regular teaching job can only be done for a limited time, I explained this to the Migrationsamt and also that I didn't qualify for a B just now but maybe this would help. I received an email back with info on how to do this. They obviously took it to mean that I wanted to apply for this status, but I don't have the money or business plan ready to do this right now.

160 CHF fine accompanying the letter for not complying with some cited laws I don't fully understand and my application for the B has been rejected (I thought it already had been a few months ago because I didn't qualify?) Maybe they think I'm a time-waster and this is what I get?

I know I'm going to have to suck this up and pay because it's in the rules, and that's fine. Even if I contest it in writing within 14 days, it says I have to pay 1000 CHF or something, but I'm worried now. Does this mean that I'm never going to be able to apply for a B again because I didn't tie up loose ends in SG, even if my future work contract/self employment status entitles me to one?

I'm moving to Zurich tomorrow, abgemeldet from SG within the correct time frame before my L runs out, went to the Kreisbüro to anmelden and they told me come back next week because I'm too early! (i just wanted to let them know of my whereabouts.) I have had my current teaching contract extended (finishing next week, starting again in August, valid 1 year) What if Zürich rejects my L now because I've broken the rules in SG, or will paying this fine sweep it under the carpet until my next crime?

I have tried to integrate and be a law-abiding foreigner, only ever forgotten to pay a phone bill once because I was on holiday and fined on the train for not having a Nachtzuschlag in the early days when I didn't know about it... I speak Swiss German fairly well, in that I registered and deregistered in SG and they didn't switch to High German or English - yay! (but letters like this with complicated law language are testing at times) I'm fluent in French, too and I'm here to work by improving Swiss people's English. I thought I was a fairly decent foreigner 😕

All opinions/groans welcome. Support would be better, but hey, rules are rules! Anyone ever had this happen to them before and can advise?

Thanks for taking the time to read this long-winded post!
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Old 23.06.2017, 19:47
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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160 CHF fine accompanying the letter for not complying with some cited laws
Do give you an answer please quote the cited law and articles. W/o that information the best we can do is just guess and speculate about nothing.
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Old 23.06.2017, 20:48
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Do give you an answer please quote the cited law and articles. W/o that information the best we can do is just guess and speculate about nothing.
+1.

OP you can also redact your name and address and post an image of the letter too, for full info.
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Old 23.06.2017, 20:54
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

Certainly. See photos attached.
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fined-applying-b-permit-img_6752.jpg   fined-applying-b-permit-img_6753.jpg  
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Old 23.06.2017, 20:57
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

Fined because you didn´t answer their questions.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:10
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

This must be a lesson for all of us, do not ignore officialdom, you must co-operate!
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:11
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Fined because you didn´t answer their questions.
Fair enough. I guess I didn't answer them properly when asking about self employment and you can't kill two birds with one stone
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:16
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

Wait, so all you German experts help me out - OP has to pay 160 fine AND an additional 1,000 or pay the 160 fine and it's done? And what exactly is the offense? Not answering questions? This is a new one on me.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:17
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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This must be a lesson for all of us, do not ignore officialdom, you must co-operate!
...And it shall be done in writing and no other way! I'd rather go and talk to people about official matters but I guess they don't go in for that kind of communication here, hence the letters...
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:18
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

The picture doesn´t mention specific fines. It just says that any request for information needs to be answered and not answering will lead to the request for the permit being denied/respectively the request not being granted
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:19
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

The part before 1. is missing, and then there seems to be a part 3 may be even 4 or 5.

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Wait, so all you German experts help me out - OP has to pay 160 fine AND an additional 1,000 or pay the 160 fine and it's done? And what exactly is the offense? Not answering questions? This is a new one on me.
We only have may be half or a third of the full information. From the pictures given we can still only speculate and guess.
Strange, people want answers, but only provide half of the information.

But in general, they sent you letters and asked for more information. You did not provided the requested information. As you must provide the information by law you were fined. It is unclear which law allowed the authorities to fine you. I did not find anything in the AuG (Foreign Nationals Act)

Here the cited Art. 90 AuG.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...232/index.html

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Art. 90 Obligation to cooperate

Foreign nationals and third parties involved in proceedings under this Act are obliged to cooperate in determining the relevant circumstances necessary to apply this Act. They must in particular:

a. provide accurate and complete information about circumstances, which are essential for the regulation of the period of stay;

b. submit the required evidence without delay or make every effort to obtain it within a reasonable period;

c. obtain identity documents (Art. 89) or assist the authorities in obtaining these documents.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:20
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Wait, so all you German experts help me out - OP has to pay 160 fine AND an additional 1,000 or pay the 160 fine and it's done? And what exactly is the offense? Not answering questions? This is a new one on me.
Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one. Just to clarify the 1000 CHF bit:
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Last edited by hanaliz86; 23.06.2017 at 21:21. Reason: No photo attached
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:21
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Wait, so all you German experts help me out - OP has to pay 160 fine AND an additional 1,000 or pay the 160 fine and it's done? And what exactly is the offense? Not answering questions? This is a new one on me.
If the OP would post the part of the letter which lists the fine we'd all know.

I'm guessing that one part will be a processing fee, and the other will be a fine for failing to cooperate by responding to their communications.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:22
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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...And it shall be done in writing and no other way! I'd rather go and talk to people about official matters but I guess they don't go in for that kind of communication here, hence the letters...
That's all fair and acceptable, but in such situations, verbal means nothing without a paper trail...n°1 rule in business and anything as important.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:31
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one. Just to clarify the 1000 CHF bit:
It says if you object than you may have to pay an advance payment on court fees which will be around CHF 1000.

(Which you will get back if you win the case)

If I connect the dots right you were fined based on Art. 292 Swiss Criminal Code https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a292 or the corresponding Art. 106 of the St. Gall VRP https://www.gesetzessammlung.sg.ch/f...2217?locale=de
in one of the letter you got they have mentioned that you must provide the requested information or you will be fined.

Please, read your damn letters. If you do not understand German get it translated.

It is possible that you still have to provide the requested information and if you keep refusing you will get an even higher fine.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:31
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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The part before 1. is missing, and then there seems to be a part 3 may be even 4 or 5.


We only have may be half or a third of the full information. From the pictures given we can still only speculate and guess.
Strange, people want answers, but only provide half of the information.

But in general, they sent you letters and asked for more information. You did not provided the requested information. As you must provide the information by law you were fined. It is unclear which law allowed the authorities to fine you. I did not find anything in the AuG (Foreign Nationals Act)

Here the cited Art. 90 AuG.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...232/index.html
Thing is, I didn't have any evidence to submit. I was in the process of trying to build up clients but this takes time... Much longer than the dates they expected a response. It wasn't working out, so I abandoned the idea and didn't tell them, which is obviously my fault, but they only wrote to me again once I'd signed out. I'll just have to inform them every step of the way next time. I thought about going in and trying to explain this, as I prefer speaking to someone face-to-face in German, but I just want to get on with my life now! Speaking of which... I'd better carry on with this packing. Thanks for your all help!
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:32
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Thank you! Glad I'm not the only one. Just to clarify the 1000 CHF bit:
Aha, thanks for the pic.

You have 14 days to protest their decision, giving a reason, in writing, but if you do so you'll probably have to pay them 1000 up front. It's not clear from the text if that's at least 1000, at most 1000, or that it's sometimes more or less 1000.
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:35
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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That's all fair and acceptable, but in such situations, verbal means nothing without a paper trail...n°1 rule in business and anything as important.
Fair enough. I've managed to get away with making phone calls up to now re health insurance, pension and banking matters. Time to fight the fear of writing in German!
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:36
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

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Thing is, I didn't have any evidence to submit. I was in the process of trying to build up clients but this takes time...
Thing is, you properly did not understand what they actually requested and what you had to provide.

Sorry do say that, but considering your lack of understanding what was written in the posted letter and that you did not understand that you must provide information or you will be fined (that part was mentioned in one of the letters).
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Old 23.06.2017, 21:39
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Re: Fined for applying for a B permit

Question: Do you still have all the letters they sent you ??
Would be very stupid and bad if you had thrown them away.
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