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  #21  
Old 19.08.2017, 13:52
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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At the least you'll need a C permit and probably need to speak a Swiss language as well.
Not for facillitated.

Tom
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Old 19.08.2017, 17:08
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

Hey guys, OP here.

Thank you so much for many good suggestions.

By 'not having a passport' I meant I would have a passport, but it would be expired passport.

And yes, my original thought was that if I can go through the legal processes with my expired passport, I will be able to become elligible for naturalization.
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Old 19.08.2017, 17:30
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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And yes, my original thought was that if I can go through the legal processes with my expired passport, I will be able to become elligible for naturalization.
Being unable to produce a valid passport it going to raise all kinds of red flags for investigation.
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Old 19.08.2017, 17:40
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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Hey guys, OP here.

Thank you so much for many good suggestions.

By 'not having a passport' I meant I would have a passport, but it would be expired passport.

And yes, my original thought was that if I can go through the legal processes with my expired passport, I will be able to become elligible for naturalization.
Expired is tbe same as no passport.

Tom
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Old 19.08.2017, 17:44
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

- There is zero difference between "having an expired passport" and "not having a passport". You know that when the authorities ask for any document, they mean a valid document, don't you?
- your passport is the only official document proving your identity in switzerland. The swiss residence permit alone is not. Even if you remain in switzerland, if you get an official check of identity for a serious reason, having a residence permit but not a passport will definitely make you in trouble
- Again, as non-European citizen, you have much much more to worry about than than the naturalization, if you live in switzerland without a passport.

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Hey guys, OP here.

Thank you so much for many good suggestions.

By 'not having a passport' I meant I would have a passport, but it would be expired passport.

And yes, my original thought was that if I can go through the legal processes with my expired passport, I will be able to become elligible for naturalization.
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Old 19.08.2017, 18:32
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

I have thought of a slightly dodgy answer to your passport expiry date issue. However, even with a passport valid for ten years, your problem is going to be getting the D-visa put in it in South Korea and leaving the country with no questions asked.

You haven't said where you are living now and what your status is with the military? Have you been called up yet? It looks like the compulsory age is 20? Ie can you get a new passport now or are you already avoiding military service?

But assuming you could get the D-visa and a new passport now (which I doubt) you could "accidentally" damage your current passport, maybe it accidentally goes in the washing machine? Then get a new one issued which will be valid for ten years.
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Old 19.08.2017, 18:33
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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Hey guys, OP here.

Thank you so much for many good suggestions.

By 'not having a passport' I meant I would have a passport, but it would be expired passport.

And yes, my original thought was that if I can go through the legal processes with my expired passport, I will be able to become elligible for naturalization.
No, as others have said. An expired passport is not a valid one. In two years time your passport will become invalid and so will any Swiss permit since your passport is invalid. If you try and renew the permit without a valid passport it won't happen, no matter who you're married to. And without a valid permit you can't stay here, you'll be told to go back to SK.
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Old 19.08.2017, 21:54
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

After five years of marriage, you do NOT get Swiss citizenship.

Rather, you can apply for facillitated citizenship, which would require presenting a valid passport, birth cetificate issued within the past 6 months, and waiting up to two years.

No passport, no birth certificate, no chance.

Tom
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Old 20.08.2017, 00:22
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

I came from a non-EU country and am married to a Swiss national. I can confirm that you must renew the B-permit annually, and each renewal requires a copy of your current, valid passport. My now-husband and I lived apart for nearly two years before we got married, me in the U.S. and him here. We survived, and believe our marriage is stronger for having gone through that difficult time. You can survive too, assuming you're marrying for love and not for the passport.
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Old 20.08.2017, 09:25
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

We have lots of posts on here from folk who bend, stretch or ignore finer points of the law - or know others who do it.
I wouldn't ever advise anyone to follow their example though, not just because I tend to be law-abiding but because I would be constantly worrying about the consequences of getting caught.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:30. Reason: removed quote
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  #31  
Old 20.08.2017, 10:12
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

A valid passport for a non-EU citizen is checked in many cases:
- opening a bank account, 3rd pillar, many insurances...
- any formal police check (e.g. border check, car accident...)
- anything related to police record, debt certificate, unemployment benefit, social assistance...
- marriage, divorce, birth of child, adoption, death...
- buying (in many cases also renting) apartment/houses
......

While in cases like reserving a hotel room, proving your age when buying cigarettes, a residence permit alone is OK, in many cases it is NOT.

A residence permit shows "this person on this permit have right to be here", and to be legally valid, it has to be combined with another document "pièce de légitimation" to prove that you are that person, and this will be a passport (with some exceptions, see below).

Of course there are many people living in CH without a valid passport
- Swiss citizens
- Some EU/EFTA citizens, for whom their national identity card is considered functionally equivalent as passport
- recognized refugees, asylum seekers, temporarily protected persons by Switzerland. For these persons, SEM issues a "passport for foreigners" to be functionally equivalence of a passport
- Some illegal immigrants

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:32. Reason: removed quotes
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  #32  
Old 20.08.2017, 11:32
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

I had to show my passport when opening a bank account for example.

It is very simple OP will not be able to live here without passport. He cannot extend his visa, so he'll be illegal, and always has the risk of being evicted from the country. Also there are many other issues when his passport has expired he for example cannot become the father of his kids if he wants to.

Wether he likes it or not, he has to solve this issue, either do community service for 3 years or 2 years of military service there is just no work around for him since dodging is no reason to grand asylum.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:34. Reason: removed quote
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Old 20.08.2017, 15:00
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

IF the South Korean embassy really got an order from their gouvernment not to issue passports to people not having served in the army, then OP might be able to get a "special passport" from the Swiss authorities.

Alternatively, I'd check if there are sure ways to avoid military service, like joining a DPRK-organisation maybe? Means they'd probably issue him a passport just so he'd let them alone

Unless he really wants to go back to Chaebol-country at some time in the future.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:38. Reason: slight edit to remove the OT
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Old 20.08.2017, 15:05
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

LEtr article 89
Art. 89 Possession of a valid identity document
Foreign nationals must be in possession of a valid identity document recognised in terms of Article 13 paragraph 1 during their stay in Switzerland.

OASA article 8 : identity document of foreigners (concerning art. 13, paragraph 1, LEtr)
The following are recognized:
a. Legitimation documents issued by a State recognized by Switzerland, which establish the identity of the holder, his membership of the issuing State and guarantee that he may return there at any time;
b. The other documents guaranteeing that the holder is authorized to enter at any time in the State which has established them or in the territory indicated on the document;
c. The other documents guaranteeing that the holder may obtain at any time a document of legitimation authorizing him to enter the State which established it or in the territory indicated on the document.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:39. Reason: removed quote
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Old 20.08.2017, 15:18
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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Not at all. But resident foreigners need not carry their passports / national ID cards with them whilst in CH.
OP will NOT be able to properly life in Switzerland with an expired passport, full stop.

Yes, there are people who are living in Switzerland without valid documents. But they can't hold a job (a legal one.. not working at a Kebab shop..) or do MANY other things. OP is not asking about how frequent checks for papers are on the road domestically (they do happen, by the way!).

He simply asks what kind of procedure he can take.

OP is in a very tricky situation, and last he can use is 5 pages of babbling about something he didn't asked in the first place.

He wants to be here legally. He wants to settle down here, giving up his former nationality eventually (who could blame him for that?)

So we're discussion ideas how, in his very special case, he could succeed with that. Nothing else..

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:41. Reason: slight edit to clean up OT; left quote for context
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  #36  
Old 20.08.2017, 15:23
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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IF the South Korean embassy really got an order from their gouvernment not to issue passports to people not having served in the army, then OP might be able to get a "special passport" from the Swiss authorities.

Alternatively, I'd check if there are sure ways to avoid military service, like joining a DPRK-organisation maybe? Means they'd probably issue him a passport just so he'd let them alone

Unless he really wants to go back to Chaebol-country at some time in the future.
SEM (Federal immigration office) does issue "passport for foreigners" for a small special group of foreigners who cannot have a "normal" passport, which can be used whenever a passport is needed. There is actually a federal ordonnance on this: https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...548/index.html

But usually, this kind of passport is only for stateless persons, recognized refugees, person temporarily protected by Switzerland, or in an extreme gravity (humanity reasons, for example, citizens from NORTH Korea who, upon returning to their country, will be in extreme danger). OP does not seem to fulfill any of them.

However, there is nothing negative that OP make an inquiry to SEM. On the other hand, as I said, I'm sure he is not the only South Korean facing this issue, by looking for info posted from his other co-citizens he might find some thing useful.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 21.08.2017 at 14:40. Reason: slight edit to quoted text to remove OT
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Old 21.08.2017, 10:57
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

OP, forget it. It won't work. No way.

Military or civil service is mandatory in SK. Certainly this is enforced by making dodging the service punishable with prison. If OP proceeds as intended he'll be sentenced to prison in absence. Since SK knows he's abroad he'll be searched for internationally by INTERPOL (SK and CH are members).

As a consequence Swiss authorities will be informed. This is unavoidable.

With an international search warrant open there's no way OP will be allowed to proceed as intended, let alone naturalise. Actually the search warrant will probably be recognised and acted upon, meaning he'll probably be deported back to SK to be thrown into prison.

OP, serve as is your duty and be done with it.
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Old 21.08.2017, 11:53
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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IF the South Korean embassy really got an order from their gouvernment not to issue passports to people not having served in the army, then OP might be able to get a "special passport" from the Swiss authorities.
Not doing its mandatory military service does not give one the privileges to one of this special passports. Specially as the Swiss have to do military service as well. From the Swiss point of view not able to get an SK passport in such a situation is just an small and simple administrative issue which can be overcome easely.

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Yet I am fully aware that it is not necessary within CH to carry a passport!
Who on earth told you that it is by no means necessary??

[I]LEtr article 89
Art. 89 Possession of a valid identity document
Foreign nationals must be in possession of a valid identity document recognised in terms of Article 13 paragraph 1 during their stay in Switzerland.
To be fair aresid said carry. And indeed there is no need to carry passport/ID or permit all the time. But you must be able to produce and present a valid one (permit/passport/ID) in good time when requested if you are a foreigner a.k.a to posses one. According to a Council of Europe agreement some passports can even be expired and still deemed valid. As a Swiss you do not even need to have any passport or ID.
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  #39  
Old 21.08.2017, 12:14
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

No girl in the known universe is worth to burn your bridges with Korea in such a way as you're trying to. You may want to return one day, if only to see your parents one more time before they pass away. And to finagle yourself a different passport doesn't get you off the hook.

In my day, Switzerland was also very hard, military or prison, full stop. Many of us "make love not war" bunch, including me, chose the so called "grey way". We had lists of "friendly" doctors, who would write us "not fit for duty" medical certificates. For instance round down your eye sight a little, just enough to not go to military, but still good enough to drive. Psychological problems were also highly sought after, if you were brave enough; no-one gives a gun to a looney

Maybe there are "grey ways" in your country, too, if you look for them?

Last edited by Plau Deri; 21.08.2017 at 12:24.
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Old 21.08.2017, 13:35
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Re: Tricky Marriage Situation with Expired Visa

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No girl in the known universe is worth to burn your bridges with Korea in such a way as you're trying to.
It's not about the girl or marriage, that's merely the means to avoid serving.
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