Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 22.08.2017, 18:33
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Annfrost has no particular reputation at present
MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Hello,

We currently live in London and we are considering moving to Zurich or Zug this Autumn.

We are a young family. I am a British passport holder, so is my son. My fiancee is an EU passport holder.

We are hoping to apply for Permit B For resident foreign nationals who stay in Switzerland on a long-term basis without gainful employment. We have a start up based abroad and not planning to gain employment in Switzerland.

I am financially independent and I was wondering if you could let me know:

1) What is the acceptable minimum amount of sufficient financial resources required for the B Resident Permit (my personal wealth cash wise is 800k CHF) so that mine, my baby and my partner permits will get the B permit without gaining employment in Switzerland?

2) Is cohabitation accepted in Zurich (I am not married to my long-term partner who is also the father of my son, although we are planning to do it soon)?

I would be hugely grateful for your kind advice on this matter.

Thank you
Ann
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 22.08.2017, 18:43
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 358
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 225 Times in 136 Posts
DL21 has earned some respectDL21 has earned some respect
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

i think it varies by canton so there isn't a hard answer. they want to see you can have a room each in your accommodation and enough 'income' to support you all for the period of the permit. i don't know what this amount would be but i guess at least 100k per person. if that income is only from spending wealth then 800 wouldn't last long.

best bet would be to ask at the cantonal migration office in the town/area you want to move to.

why switzerland? because you want to pay less tax than in the UK and don't like the other places with lower taxes? why not pay a little more tax and live in a canton with decent weather south of the alps?

oh - on the co habitation. not sure that would work everywhere. being married would be a lot easier.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 22.08.2017, 18:54
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Best is to take up contact with the kanton(s), since the rulings are not all equal in each kanton.

They will be interested in your bank-account and in your business. Personally i'd say if your business is healthy and you have 800K you should be perfectly fine.

Cohabitation is perfectly fine inhere, tho being married makes some things a bit easier imho.

If you plan on getting married soon anyway, i'd suggest to keep things simple and do such while still in the U.K.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 22.08.2017, 18:56
Salad Days's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Geneva
Posts: 386
Groaned at 12 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 292 Times in 128 Posts
Salad Days has made some interesting contributions
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

I came to Switzerland on a B permit and EU passport without gainful employment. I got the impression that my non-Swiss income counted for nothing. My partner, UK passport, C permit here with a permanent job, had to sign something agreeing to support me to a certain amount and that was based on his Swiss income. If he hadn't had a Swiss income I don't think things would have gone well.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 22.08.2017, 18:58
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
i don't know what this amount would be but i guess at least 100k per person. If that income is only from spending wealth then 800 wouldn't last long.
It's less than 300K for a couple and a kid, When i arrived here without job and total money in the minus due to the housing market, they only asked for her income which was around 100K and this was good enough for two.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 22.08.2017, 19:00
newtoswitz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Rapperswil
Posts: 2,701
Groaned at 45 Times in 42 Posts
Thanked 3,159 Times in 1,440 Posts
newtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond reputenewtoswitz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

If you have a startup and have income from that, then you are self employed and would have to declare that income as a Swiss resident, which may be enough to get you a B permit.

If you are co-habiting, then you must independently fulfil the criteria for the permit; other than that, co-habiting is very common here, I don't think it would cause any issues other than the bureaucratic ones.

There must be some way to combine costs a bit though - your fiance doesn't need to live in a house suitable for a family, so his accommodation cost should be whatever a flat-share would be, and so on.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 22.08.2017, 19:02
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,475
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,282 Times in 9,243 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

There's no hard and fast rule, it's down to the individual cantons to decide what they believe is enough. So you need to contact the Zurich cantonal migration office to see what they say.

As for co-habitation, it does exist here, but isn't always accepted for permit purposes, again varies from canton to canton. Zurich is one that does issue a concubine permit (yes, that's its name). Not sure if Zug would, I don't think I've seen anything here on the forum that says whether they issue concubine permits or not.

Requirements for the permits are these:

https://www.ch.ch/en/family-reunification-eu-efta/

More on co-habitation here:

https://www.ch.ch/en/cohabiting/

For co-habiting you'll have to agree to be financially responsible for your partner for 5 years.

You also need to check you residency status for UK tax purposes just in case you might be liable for UK tax returns as well as Swiss ones. The Swiss tax worldwide income and wealth so also bear that in mind.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22.08.2017, 21:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 10,475
Groaned at 29 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 24,149 Times in 7,591 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
We are hoping to apply for Permit B For resident foreign nationals who stay in Switzerland on a long-term basis without gainful employment. We have a start up based abroad and not planning to gain employment in Switzerland.

Just to be clear, you are only looking for residency permits, not hoping for a Pauschalsteuer deal - correct?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 22.08.2017, 21:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,880
Groaned at 284 Times in 213 Posts
Thanked 17,638 Times in 6,195 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
Just to be clear, you are only looking for residency permits, not hoping for a Pauschalsteuer deal - correct?
800k is not sufficient for pauschalsteuer.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 22.08.2017, 21:31
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SZ
Posts: 10,475
Groaned at 29 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 24,149 Times in 7,591 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
800k is not sufficient for pauschalsteuer.
Which is why I asked, so as not to veer off on a tangent with info that wouldn't apply...)

(Possibly a first for me, I usually just natter on. Feelin' my age today. )
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 22.08.2017, 21:56
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,475
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,282 Times in 9,243 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Doubt the OP knows what a Pauschalsteuer deal is and since they don't speak German and this is an English forum, please explain the term so they can understand what you're talking about folks.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 22.08.2017, 22:03
Longbyt's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 8,130
Groaned at 57 Times in 53 Posts
Thanked 12,980 Times in 4,732 Posts
Longbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond reputeLongbyt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Pauschalsteuer = flat-rate tax
Can also mean a lump sum tax
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Longbyt for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 22.08.2017, 22:57
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 7,880
Groaned at 284 Times in 213 Posts
Thanked 17,638 Times in 6,195 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
Doubt the OP knows what a Pauschalsteuer deal is and since they don't speak German and this is an English forum, please explain the term so they can understand what you're talking about folks.
if you plan to move to a country with a different language, you should be capable to find it out yourself. spoon feeding is not the right mentality if you want to move abroad.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 22.08.2017, 23:02
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,158
Groaned at 168 Times in 143 Posts
Thanked 6,557 Times in 2,971 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
We are hoping to apply for Permit B For resident foreign nationals who stay in Switzerland on a long-term basis without gainful employment. We have a start up based abroad and not planning to gain employment in Switzerland.
From what I recall, income needs to come from investments only and there were restrictions on operating off shore businesses. But it is a while ago since I looked at it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 23.08.2017, 01:47
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 84
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
alsion has made some interesting contributions
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
As for co-habitation, it does exist here, but isn't always accepted for permit purposes, again varies from canton to canton. Zurich is one that does issue a concubine permit (yes, that's its name). Not sure if Zug would, I don't think I've seen anything here on the forum that says whether they issue concubine permits or not.
I live in Kanton Zug. There is a "Lebenspartner" (life partner) visa which doesn't require marriage or even cohabitation, only to be able to evidence that you have been in a proper relationship for a sufficient amount of time, plus evidence of financial support needed (i.e. above the level at which you would be on benefits if you were Swiss, I think CHF 100 a day; it's more about income than assets). (As an aside, note that once you become Swiss resident you will be taxed on your worldwide assets, unlike in the UK.) It is difficult to find info on this visa as its tucked in the sections for non-EU, and EU citizens usually just make use of the free movements visas then find a job and get a B permit.

I don't know if this is quite the visa and info you need, but helpfully I got this info from emailing the Zug Immigration Office. Not something you'd think to do in the UK - you'd never call or email the Home Office and expect any kind of helpful answer! But here in Kantonal Switzerland, services like these are excellent. I suggest you reach out to them (by email or phone) with your queries. They reply to my emails within half an hour and when I call, I always get through to the same helpful lady.

I do all this correspondence in (poor!) German as I like to practice, but I guess they are likely to have someone in their offices who speaks English (Kanton Zug is full of foreigners). On their website, a lot of the detailed helpsheets and forms are not in English.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank alsion for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 23.08.2017, 08:40
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Aare
Posts: 488
Groaned at 30 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 210 Times in 137 Posts
aarosaline is considered knowledgeableaarosaline is considered knowledgeableaarosaline is considered knowledgeable
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Different sources give different figures, some do not give a figure at all. It may be the case that each case is judged individually.
I asked this question on separate occasions and was on both occasions given similar answers.

To obtain a B permit and only work part time in Switzerland, the gross income/salary must be at least 1'800 francs per month. This is for a single person.
Under this figure the permit would not be granted ordinarily as it would mean the foreigner would have the immediate right to supplementary benefits as a low earner. If this were possible then everyone would come here and work only part time.
I should mention that this was quite a while ago.

Since then we have asked the same question again for someone who may come to Switzerland. This person again would only work part time. We were informed that her gross salary/income must be at least 2'000 francs per month for a B permit to be granted. She is single with no children.

So you see it sometimes does depend on the salary. The number of hours or percentage of the contract is generally irrelevant.

These figures may seem quite low. But under the circumstances they are the amounts above which the individual can't obtain supplementary benefits, hence the permit being possible.
The figures rise for couples or adults with dependant children who are coming here.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 23.08.2017, 09:09
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,475
Groaned at 371 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 16,282 Times in 9,243 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Found this by googling the term Pauschalsteuer and using translation:

"requirements

To pay the flat-rate tax instead of ordinary taxes

Foreigners who
have not exercised or exercise an activity in Switzerland 1;
require renewal of the flat rate tax for the next tax period.

Swiss

The first time in Switzerland residence or
Return after at least 10 years of absence from the country, provided that: ◦ In Switzerland
◦ Have not been fully taxed in Switzerland for the last 10 years.

The right to lump sum before the expiry of the tax period of the entry date (cantonal right) or before expiry of the calendar year (federal law) following the entry.

Double citizens according to the rules of returned Swiss citizens (see above) 2 .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Exceptions: voluntary activity, participation as a member of the board of directors with a fee of up to a certain amount, artistic performances for charity, a limited partnership with a Swiss limited partnership (KommG), writers or scientists who generate the intellectual part in Switzerland and exploit their work abroad (Safeguards necessary to refute the presumption of ordinary employment which excludes the flat-rate taxation, and the gainful employment of the spouse, insofar as their activity is not related to the current or former activity of the taxpayer abroad.

2 If only the wife and / or the children under parental authority have Swiss citizenship, the foreign taxpayer is still subject to unlimited lump-sum taxation."

https://www.pauschalsteuern.ch/voraussetzungen

Also this from back in 2015 - don't know if it got passed though, but if so the OP might not qualify.

"In the Tiefsteuerkanton train the wind is turning: the cantonal council wants to tighten the rules for the flat rate taxation. On Thursday at first reading, it decided to raise the assessment bases. This means that the financially charged canton wants to take more tax in the long term.

The decision fell with 42 to 28 votes, whereby also numerous citizens voted for the tightening. However, the change is not yet definite. The second reading with final vote takes place in four weeks. The Council followed with the decision of the government, which also wants to increase the hurdles.

Foreigners must now have 11.76 million Swiss francs

A taxable income of 588,000 Swiss francs will be the minimum limit for flat rate taxation in the future. Previously, the limit was 420'000 Swiss francs. Moreover, under a taxable assets of 11.76 million, no foreigner can be taxed at a flat rate. Up to now the ceiling was 8.4 million.

By 2020 these new minimum amounts should only apply to newcomers. From 2021, however, they should also be applied to the existing flat-rate flights.

Too poor for flat rate taxation

Not all of the currently 104 concessional flat-rate taxpayers will be able to create the new hurdles: Financial Director Peter Hegglin (CVP) expects that about half will be completely eliminated from flat-rate taxation. In the future they will be too little wealth to benefit from a discount.

These 52 persons must be taxed as from 2021 as all other trainers. The canton therefore expects an annual increase of about 450,000 Swiss francs.

With aggravation still competitive

However, the prerequisite is that these persons do not move away. However, Hegglin was convinced in the debate that the canton of Zug is still competitive with this tightening.

Beneficiaries are rich foreigners, who live in Switzerland, but do not pursue any gainful employment here. A prominent example of train is the Russian entrepreneur Viktor Vekselberg."

http://www.handelszeitung.ch/politik...lsteuer-763990
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 23.08.2017, 14:06
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Annfrost has no particular reputation at present
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Thank you Everybody for your advice. It is extremely kind of you.

We have contacted both Migration Offices in Zurich and Zug and they have unfortunately not replied to our questions apart from:

- Zug - sending us forms E1 and F1 to complete, ignoring the 2 questions we have asked
- Zurich - told us that as EU citizens we can enter the country without a visa (how helpful, it is not what we were after).

We would simply like to avoid a situation that we apply to the Zurich Migration Office and our application gets rejected, this gets into their system while it could be accepted by the Zug Migration Office instead.

Not really sure how possibly we can obtain more information if the Migration Offices are reluctant to provide us with more detailed information.

Any advice from your side is highly appreciated.

Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 23.08.2017, 14:16
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: lugano
Posts: 358
Groaned at 30 Times in 20 Posts
Thanked 225 Times in 136 Posts
DL21 has earned some respectDL21 has earned some respect
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

i would call them. or take a trip over and visit them in person to get all the details and ask all your questions. do you not have a personal preference between zurich and zug?

you would need to spend some time finding a place to live etc. might as well take a trip to do that and speak to both offices in person when there. i suppose that is what zurich is suggesting when they tell you you can enter switzerland without a visa.

at least in ticino i found the whole process pretty pleasant and laid back compared to the US immigration system. they took their sweet time to issue a permit but told to me relax and live normally, entering and leaving as i pleased.

this can cause a few issues because there are a lot of things you can't do without a permit (get a phone on contract, buy a house, sometimes even rent a house, open a bank account, get health insurance, get a driving licence etc).
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 23.08.2017, 14:22
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Zurich
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Annfrost has no particular reputation at present
Re: MINIMUM AMOUNT FOR PERMIT B without gainful employment

Quote:
View Post
If you have a startup and have income from that, then you are self employed and would have to declare that income as a Swiss resident, which may be enough to get you a B permit.

If you are co-habiting, then you must independently fulfil the criteria for the permit; other than that, co-habiting is very common here, I don't think it would cause any issues other than the bureaucratic ones.

There must be some way to combine costs a bit though - your fiance doesn't need to live in a house suitable for a family, so his accommodation cost should be whatever a flat-share would be, and so on.
Thank you Newtoswitz, we will only commence operations this October therefore do not expect any income until the end of the year. We both co-own the business. We will also however rent our place in London for about CHF 3,100 a month which we are hoping to spend on a rented accommodation in Switzerland.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
b permit, cohabitation, minimum wealth, zug, zurich




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Residing in Switzerland without gainful activity AlaskaGuy Permits/visas/government 16 01.10.2016 16:37
Residence without gainful employment - L permit? swiss_pond Permits/visas/government 4 27.05.2014 14:20
Residing without gainful activity inevitable18 Permits/visas/government 6 08.02.2014 15:14
Gainful Employment as EU Student unisonne Permits/visas/government 1 06.07.2013 18:34


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0