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Old 03.11.2017, 12:59
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Reseting the 180 day period

I am a Swiss/Canadian citizen living in Ticino for work.

My girlfriend from Canada, travelled to Switzerland from August 28-October 10, 2017 (45 days total) as a tourist.
She would like to travel back to Switzerland for 45 days (January 15-February 28, 2018). Her total length of stay will be 90 days within 180 days.
After spending this second trip (45 days - January 15-February 28, 2018) in Switzerland, is she required to be out of the Schengen region for 90 days before entering again?

In other words, after completing the 180 day period, does she need to leave Switzerland to a non-schengen country for one day and then come back in to start her new 180 day period... or could she just stay in Switzerland and it would automatically reset

I have contacted the embassy in Bern and in Montreal and cannot get a concrete answer

Anything would help!

Thank you
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  #2  
Old 03.11.2017, 13:33
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

It's all done on a rolling count these days so try and use the calculator link here:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...tsrechner.html

There are some examples of how it works which hopefully will help you sort it out.
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Old 03.11.2017, 13:42
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

So essentially, she wants to more or less live here, without getting the proper permit (which admittedly she probably wouldn't get).

Given neither embassy seems to know, anyone here too can at best venture a guess.
My POV: she'll have exhausted 90 days in 180 days and therefore needs to stay out of Schengen for 90 days before being allowed re-entry. Visa runs don't work, certainly not if she's exhausted the full 'allowance' of visa-free travel. If it were as easy as just hopping to London for the day, certainly many more people would do it.

Better not mess around with this btw, chances are she'll be banned for years. Not just from Switzerland.
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Old 03.11.2017, 13:51
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

so let's say you enter and stay for 90 days. then you have to leave for 90 days and then you can come back (for another 90 days) on, say, day 181.

but what if you enter and stay for only 89 days. then on day 180, you come and use up your last day and so you have to leave again. does it mean you have to wait a further 90 days after the 180 days? Or do the days in between the first 90 days and day 180 count towards the 90 days 'away'?
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Old 03.11.2017, 15:23
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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but what if you enter and stay for only 89 days. then on day 180, you come and use up your last day and so you have to leave again. does it mean you have to wait a further 90 days after the 180 days?
Yes.

It's 90 days in the 180 day period ending today, pretty simple, really.

(unless you suck at simple math)

Tom
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Old 03.11.2017, 17:01
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Yes.

It's 90 days in the 180 day period ending today, pretty simple, really.

(unless you suck at simple math)

Tom
I'd say no. (and I absolutely do not suck at math.)

The 180 days start counting on first entry and it's for any half year period, there's no ruling that says one has to wait an additional 90 days after the 180 days period has expired. (or I am unaware of it.)
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Old 03.11.2017, 17:08
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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The 180 days start counting on first entry and it's for any half year period, there's no ruling that says one has to wait an additional 90 days after the 180 days period has expired. (or I am unaware of it.)
That was the old system.

The current system is 90 days in the past 180, ending today.

Tom
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Old 03.11.2017, 17:51
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

ConnorHughes, if she wants to be here full time then easiest is to marry. If that's not on the cards at the moment then apply for a concubine permit for her. You'd have to agree to be financially responsible for her for 5 years and I don't think she can work with that permit, but at least it would put an end to the to/fro stuff going on.
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:21
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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That was the old system.

The current system is 90 days in the past 180, ending today.

Tom
Do you have a link to this? Since on the site of the EU explaining Schengen I still find "You can stay 90 days in any 180-day period within the Schengen area. " Which has been the effective ruling for some years.
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:25
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Do you have a link to this?
Use the search function.

Tom
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:32
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Do you have a link to this? Since on the site of the EU explaining Schengen I still find "You can stay 90 days in any 180-day period within the Schengen area. " Which has been the effective ruling for some years.
"Any period" has to be taken literally. It is rolling. Looking back, as Tom suggest, does exactly that. If there is any 180 day period in which you were present +90 days you overstayed.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...tsrechner.html

There it is also mentioned how visa free stays as a tourist after a residence permit ran out should be treated.
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:32
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Use the search function.

Tom
How do you think I found that, by asking a fairy?

Anyway here's a link to some things I find by searching:

Quote:
A clearer definition of short stay of non-EU citizens in the Schengen area ("90 days in any 180 days period") is applicable from 18 October 2013. Since then a new method of calculation of short stays applies.
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/wh...er-crossing_en

Or the Swiss government:

Quote:
The short-stay calculator is used to calculate the amount of time available for short stays of no more than 90 days in any 180-day period. This calculator is used for third-state nationals within the Schengen Area, regardless of their visa obligation status.
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...tsrechner.html

Or another one from the EU

Quote:
Yes, you can. However you must carefully calculate your days of stay as the overall period of stay
must not exceed the overall total of 90 (ninety) days of stay within any 180-days period (see above).
https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/fi...er_faqs_en.pdf

So unless you can proof otherwise you clearly are wrong, hence my question: Do you have a link?
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:43
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Or the Swiss government:

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...tsrechner.html

So unless you can proof otherwise you clearly are wrong, hence my question: Do you have a link?
Did you click on "Rules of calculation"? No

Quote:
The control date - no longer the date of first entry - shall now be used to check the stay. The 180-day period considered always runs prior to the control date.
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ngsregeln.html
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Old 03.11.2017, 18:46
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Did you click on "Rules of calculation"? No



https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ngsregeln.html
Then why would someone need to wait for 90 days, which according to Tom would be demanded?

This was what Tom answered to
Quote:
but what if you enter and stay for only 89 days. then on day 180, you come and use up your last day and so you have to leave again. does it mean you have to wait a further 90 days after the 180 days?
Why would one need to wait another 90 days after 180 days?


EDIT: Let's do the math

We know:

A presence of 89 days, so 89 days have expired.
A return on day 180, so 90 days of absence in between.
And no more than 90 days of presence allowed during any 180 days period.

Which gives:

Day 1 to 89 Present
Day 90 to 179 Absent
Day 180 Present (giving 90 days of presence over the last 180 days)
Day 181 Present (giving 90 days of presence over the last 180 days)
Day 182 Present (giving 90 days of presence over the last 180 days)

Only if one would stay up to day 269 one would need to leave for 90 days

I still have to disagree with Tom, either he did not understand the question, or his math might be slightly off.

Last edited by EdwinNL; 03.11.2017 at 19:24.
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Old 03.11.2017, 20:07
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

Perhaps looking at one of the examples might help explain it.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ner/bsp-5.html
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Old 04.11.2017, 13:08
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Perhaps looking at one of the examples might help explain it.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ner/bsp-5.html
If you refer to me, this exactly proofs my point.

Have a look.

Quote:
but what if you enter and stay for only 89 days. then on day 180, you come and use up your last day and so you have to leave again. does it mean you have to wait a further 90 days after the 180 days?
Now to fill in dates.

Quote:
but what if you enter and stay from 01/01/17 till 30/03/2017 (89 days). then on day 180 (29/06/17), you come and use up your last day and so you have to leave again. does it mean you have to wait a further 90 days after the 180 days?
When I set the control date for a new entry to 30/06/17 (day 180) it gives this as result.

Quote:
Start of 90 days period: 02/04/17
Start of 180 days period: 02/01/17
The stay may be authorised for up to: 89 day(s)
There's not even the need to leave the country right after day 180 if the second visit should last 2 month.

So in his own words Tom sucks at basic math

Last edited by EdwinNL; 04.11.2017 at 13:25.
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Old 04.11.2017, 16:20
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

Sorry guys i'm still not sure what you mean... if she has exhausted her 180 day period with using the full 90 days in that time frame, when can she start her new 90/180 day period? On day 181 or 90 days after the initial 180 day period?
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Old 04.11.2017, 16:35
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Sorry guys i'm still not sure what you mean... if she has exhausted her 180 day period with using the full 90 days in that time frame, when can she start her new 90/180 day period? On day 181 or 90 days after the initial 180 day period?
I did the math in previous postings, feel free to read those and ask where exactly you lose grip on it.

According to the question you asked previously which led to the discussion between Tom and me, in that situation she does not even have to leave the country after one day on her second visit.

In the question as asked above it is important to know exactly when she was in the country and when not. It's all about not being allowed more than 90 days in any 180 day period.

I think what your mistake is that you think that a new 180 day period only can start after the previous 180 day period has expired, but every day is the start of a new 180 period, and only the days in the country in those new 180 days are important.
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Old 04.11.2017, 17:53
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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Sorry guys i'm still not sure what you mean... if she has exhausted her 180 day period with using the full 90 days in that time frame, when can she start her new 90/180 day period? On day 181 or 90 days after the initial 180 day period?
This can't be answered because the correct answer depends on her pattern of stay.

Using the dates you gave in the first post, she needs to stay out until the 180day period that starts with August 28th is completed, she can reenter the following day. Assuming it ends February 24th she can reenter February 25th, upon which she can stay up to another 45 days.
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Old 04.11.2017, 18:19
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Re: Reseting the 180 day period

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This can't be answered because the correct answer depends on her pattern of stay.

Using the dates you gave in the first post, she needs to stay out until the 180day period that starts with August 28th is completed, she can reenter the following day. Assuming it ends February 24th she can reenter February 25th, upon which she can stay up to another 45 days.
If we use these dates:

Quote:
My girlfriend from Canada, travelled to Switzerland from August 28-October 10, 2017 (45 days total) as a tourist.
She would like to travel back to Switzerland for 45 days (January 15-February 28, 2018). Her total length of stay will be 90 days within 180 days.
After spending this second trip (45 days - January 15-February 28, 2018) in Switzerland, is she required to be out of the Schengen region for 90 days before entering again?
Thing is that some of the dates of the second visit already are more than 180 days after her first entry, so with these two given periods she does not reach 90 days of presence in total, and only reaches a max of 84 days total in any period of 180 days, there's no need to leave, there's no need to wait.

28/8 - 10/10 giving 44 days of presence (and not 45)
11/10 - 14/1 giving 96 days of absence
15/1 - 28/2 giving 45 days of presence

Total period time of 28/8 - 28/2 = 185 days.

On the day she leaves she only spend 84 days during the last 180 days period in Switzerland.

She can choose to stay longer on her second visit (45 days longer to be exact), or come back whenever she pleases for a stay of a minimum of at least 45 days (depending on when she would arrive the 3rd time.)
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