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Old 16.12.2017, 19:57
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Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

Hello,

I am a non EU citizen currently living in France and waiting for my L Permit to do an internship in Energy Trading in Baar, Zug.

After this 6 months internship the company plans to hire me on an unlimited contract if I do well, basically if I make a good profit by trading.

I have only done one internship (5 months) in trading before this one and it was in Paris. So, basically I am a junior with less than a year of relevant work experience.

What is the probability that I get a B permit or an extension of my L permit knowing that my salary is higher than the minimum expected by the Gemeinde (100K/year)?

Can't the company just say after these 6 months of internship we want him because he already knows the company and he has proved that he can make us a lot of money ?

I personally think these are good enough reasons to want to have me... why would the Gemeinde reject ?

Thank you in advance for all your help and your insight.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:07
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

Hello,

I am not sure about your specific case, but the only time I have heard of this happening is when you're a student in Switzerland, as foreign graduates of Swiss universities are on a sort of "equal playing field" for jobs as CH/EU citizens. I know many people who have done this, but they've all been an intern with a company for around two years during their studies in Switzerland whilst holding a Swiss Student B permit for three or four years, and then apply with the six month job seeker visa extension available only to foreign students in Switzerland, and then get a working permit.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:12
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

This is sadly not my case I think that the possibility to do this is slim to none. Maybe if I am lucky I can get an extension of my L Permit and that is only maybe
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:12
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

The gemeinde has no say in the matter. The cantonal and Federal authorities will object because priority is given to Swiss/EU nationals over non-EUs. To get a permit the company has to prove they can't find any of the former who could do the job. Plus:

"Personal qualifications

(Art. 23 AuG)

Cadre, specialists and other qualified employees will be admitted. "Qualified employee" means, first and foremost, people with a degree from a university or institution of higher education as well as several years of professional experience. Depending on the profession or field of specialisation, other people with special training and several years of professional work experience may also be admitted."

You will not have the years of experience.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...zulassung.html

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ensablauf.html
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:12
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

Thank you in any case
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:14
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Hello,

I am not sure about your specific case, but the only time I have heard of this happening is when you're a student in Switzerland, as foreign graduates of Swiss universities are on a sort of "equal playing field" for jobs as CH/EU citizens. I know many people who have done this, but they've all been an intern with a company for around two years during their studies in Switzerland whilst holding a Swiss Student B permit for three or four years, and then apply with the six month job seeker visa extension available only to foreign students in Switzerland, and then get a working permit.
Sorry, but an internship is not equal to graduating so that doesn´t count.

The normal rules for a non EU would apply. If the company is big enough and you are in a niche job, you would have a chance.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:14
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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The gemeinde has no say in the matter. The cantonal and Federal authorities will object because priority is given to Swiss/EU nationals over non-EUs. To get a permit the company has to prove they can't find any of the former who could do the job. Plus:

"Personal qualifications

(Art. 23 AuG)

Cadre, specialists and other qualified employees will be admitted. "Qualified employee" means, first and foremost, people with a degree from a university or institution of higher education as well as several years of professional experience. Depending on the profession or field of specialisation, other people with special training and several years of professional work experience may also be admitted."

You will not have the years of experience.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...zulassung.html

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ensablauf.html
Yes this is true. They will reject the my permit I am sure of it, but it is just so stupid to not keep someone who already how the company works just because he is a non EU citizen. Especially, when he has a proven track record
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:14
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

No, you have no automatic right to get another permit just because you did an internship/traineeship. It is not a good enough reason. The company needs to reapply and follow the usual non-EU hiring rules. Of course the company can try, but that's about all they can do. No one can give you any assessment on probability. In general, as an apparently recent graduate you are unlikely to get a permit for a full-time employment, unless it's in a highly specialized, niche market. A certain salary etc. are just the absolute minimum (!) requirements for your application to not land in the bin straight away. Just because certain boxes are ticked still doesn't mean a permit will automatically be granted.

Many companies (and current or prospective employees) mistakenly think by going the internship/traineeship-first-route or the temporary/fixed-term-contract-first route, it would somehow make the transition into an open-ended contract easier. It doesn't.

The Gemeinde's opinion is irrelevant too, this is a federal decision.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:16
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No, you have no automatic right to get another permit just because you did an internship/traineeship. It is not a good enough reason. The company needs to reapply and follow the usual non-EU hiring rules. Of course the company can try, but that's about all they can do. No one can give you any assessment on probability. In general, as an apparently recent graduate you are unlikely to get a permit for a full-time employment, unless it's in a highly specialized, niche market.

Many companies (and current or prospective employees) mistakenly think by going the internship/traineeship-first-route or the temporary/fixed-term contract route, it would somehow make the transition into an open-ended contract easier. It doesn't.
what is qualified as highly specialized niche market ? You can't find an energy trader any day of the week... It is hard to be an energy trader much harder than being a normal trader

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No, you have no automatic right to get another permit just because you did an internship/traineeship. It is not a good enough reason. The company needs to reapply and follow the usual non-EU hiring rules. Of course the company can try, but that's about all they can do. No one can give you any assessment on probability. In general, as an apparently recent graduate you are unlikely to get a permit for a full-time employment, unless it's in a highly specialized, niche market.

Many companies (and current or prospective employees) mistakenly think by going the internship/traineeship-first-route or the temporary/fixed-term-contract-first route, it would somehow make the transition into an open-ended contract easier. It doesn't.

The Gemeinde's opinion is irrelevant too, this is a federal decision.
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Sorry, but an internship is not equal to graduating so that doesn´t count.

The normal rules for a non EU would apply. If the company is big enough and you are in a niche job, you would have a chance.
Please tell me what a nichre job would be

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The gemeinde has no say in the matter. The cantonal and Federal authorities will object because priority is given to Swiss/EU nationals over non-EUs. To get a permit the company has to prove they can't find any of the former who could do the job. Plus:

"Personal qualifications

(Art. 23 AuG)

Cadre, specialists and other qualified employees will be admitted. "Qualified employee" means, first and foremost, people with a degree from a university or institution of higher education as well as several years of professional experience. Depending on the profession or field of specialisation, other people with special training and several years of professional work experience may also be admitted."

You will not have the years of experience.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...zulassung.html

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...ensablauf.html
When you say several years... are two years enough ?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 17.12.2017 at 11:04. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:18
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Yes this is true. They will reject the my permit I am sure of it, but it is just so stupid to not keep someone who already how the company works just because he is a non EU citizen. Especially, when he has a proven track record
The comment from the authorities would be: enough people already in Switzerland who also could do the job.

Anyone who gets hired has to learn the ropes of the new job so that is not special enough to get a permit.

That´s how it is here (and in a lot of other countries)
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:18
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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When you say several years... are two years enough ?
No.

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When you say several years... are two years enough ?
There is no publicly available list of niche jobs. But let me tell you that I worked in big Pharma and even for scientific jobs, it was often not possible to get a permit for someone with next to no relevant work experience, despite the fact that these were highly specialized jobs.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:19
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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The comment from the authorities would be: enough people already in Switzerland who also could do the job.

Anyone who gets hired has to learn the ropes of the new job so that is not special enough to get a permit.

That´s how it is here (and in a lot of other countries)
Why are they so tough on immigration ? This is insane
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:20
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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what is qualified as highly specialized niche market ? You can't find an energy trader any day of the week... It is hard to be an energy trader much harder than being a normal trader
Really? Sorry but there are plenty in Switzerland and that does not make the job a niche job
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:21
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Why are they so tough on immigration ? This is insane
No idea where you hail from but that´s how it is and also is in a lot of other countries.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:23
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Why are they so tough on immigration ? This is insane
No it's not.

a) ALL countries are tough on this. Ever looked into immigration rules of any other country? If you think it's hard here, think again.
b) EU/free movement of people led to a de facto "discrimination" of non-EU citizens, who before the EU had equal standing with all EU citizens. So blame the EU if you like.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:31
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Why are they so tough on immigration ? This is insane
If I knew how to use the groan feature, I would.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:31
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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No it's not.

a) ALL countries are tough on this. Ever looked into immigration rules of any other country? If you think it's hard here, think again.
b) EU/free movement of people led to a de facto "discrimination" of non-EU citizens, who before the EU had equal standing with all EU citizens. So blame the EU if you like.
Yes I have it's easier in other countries... For some, like Germany and Denmark if you get more than a certain amount a year (55-60k) you are given a work permit within a month of applying regardless of back ground.

I will not think again because it is harder is Switzerland. Also, in those countries you can change companies relatively quickly at will without having to go through all the process again.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:31
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Why are they so tough on immigration ? This is insane
Because they don't want you here. Sounds harsh, but the Swiss are feeling overwhelmed by incoming EU nationals already. They voted back in February 2014 to curb immigration from the EU and were expected to implement quota limits on EU permits to do that, but the Federal government (after much wrangling with the EU) decided not to bring in quotas, but to place even more emphasis on hiring people who already have a permit to live/work here. It's always been difficult to get hired here, even before Free Movement allowed EU nationals an easy route. It's just the way the Swiss are.
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:32
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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If I knew how to use the groan feature, I would.
Only one more post and it will be there
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Old 16.12.2017, 21:34
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Re: Non-EU probability to go from L permit (internship) to B permit (work)?

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Yes I have it's easier in other countries... For some, like Germany and Denmark if you get more than a certain amount a year (55-60k) you are given a work permit within a month of applying regardless of back ground.

I will not think again because it is harder is Switzerland. Also, in those countries you can change companies relatively quickly at will without having to go through all the process again.
Well then, what is keeping you if it is so easy there?
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