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Old 03.09.2018, 14:30
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Early C Permit, Non EU

Hi Everyone,

I have been living in Zurich for five years now. I spent the first two years on a student permit, two years later I had an L-Permit on an unlimited contract and then a B-Permit for a year. According to my understanding I am eligible for applying for the early C permit based on good integration.

I received a rejection few days ago stating that I don't fulfil the five years criteria. They argue that the study years are only included if followed by a two years and they say it started with the B permit. For some reason, they don't consider the L permit after the studies to be included in the two years
required to include the study years.

To be more precise, here is the interesting paragraph in their reply:

Quote:
Wie bereits erwähnt, wird der Aufenthalt zur Aus- oder Weiterbildung angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs 5 AuG). Ihnen wurde am 24. November 2017 eine Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt erteilt. Die Prüfung für die Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung auf Grund erfolgreicher Integration kann somit frühestens am 23. November 2019 erfolgen.
If I understand the laws correctly, Short stay permits should be counted if the work contract is unlimited, as mentioned here:



Did anybody have a similar experience or has more information about this? Thanks a lot for your help!
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Old 03.09.2018, 14:34
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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To be more precise, here is the interesting paragraph in their reply:



If I understand the laws correctly, Short stay permits should be counted if the work contract is unlimited, as mentioned here:
No, it says that only B permits count, not L permits as short stay is not "Aufenthaltsbewilligung für dauerhaften Aufenthalt"
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Old 03.09.2018, 14:53
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

Thanks a lot for your answer. What I understand from the following paragraph I attached is:

Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligungen werden angerechnet, wenn der Aufenthalt von Beginn weg auf Dauer ausgerichtet war, das heisst ein unbefristeter Arbeitsvertrag vorlag.

Which to me means that an L-Permit + Unlimited contract should be treated just as a B permit. Am I mistaken here?
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Old 03.09.2018, 14:55
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Thanks a lot for your answer. What I understand from the following paragraph I attached is:

Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligungen werden angerechnet, wenn der Aufenthalt von Beginn weg auf Dauer ausgerichtet war, das heisst ein unbefristeter Arbeitsvertrag vorlag.

Which to me means that an L-Permit + Unlimited contract should be treated just as a B permit. Am I mistaken here?
Where does that wording come from? Seems the link/quote is missing in your earlier post?
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Old 03.09.2018, 14:59
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Where does that wording come from? Seems the link/quote is missing in your earlier post?
Sorry something went wrong. Here it is:



Full document is here, Section 5.1 Document
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Old 03.09.2018, 15:06
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Sorry something went wrong. Here it is:



Full document is here, Section 5.1 Document
Had you got a B after your studies then it would have been considered for minimum requirement of 5 years stay.
Hence they are only considering your 2 years on L (being on Unlimited Contract) and 1 year B, that's why you are eligible in Nov 2019.

Your study permit had be discounted due to you getting an L.
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Old 03.09.2018, 15:11
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

Medea will be along shortly I'm sure...

In the meantime, I think you need 2 years on B after L to qualify. Not simply 2 years student, 2 years L and 1 year B.
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Old 03.09.2018, 15:25
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

Quote:
Wie bereits erwähnt, wird der Aufenthalt zur Aus- oder Weiterbildung angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs 5 AuG).
You are probably confusing two issues in the Migrationsamt ZH's interpretation of the rules.
- Years on L permits with an unlimited work contract count always.
- Student B permits are counted as soon as you spend 2 years on a B permit ("Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt") after your studies are completed.

An L permit is not an "Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt" (residence permission for a long stay), because it can be extended for a maximum of two years in total, while a B permit can in theory be extended indefinitely.

So they were not wrong (if strict). Your 5 years (student B+B)+L+L+B is not enough as it's only the three years of L+L+B that count at the moment. Next year when you have (student B+B)+L+L+B+B all 6 years will count and you can apply. It's a pity this jump from 3 to 6 years is discontinuous, but it is what it is by the rules
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Old 04.09.2018, 12:56
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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You are probably confusing two issues in the Migrationsamt ZH's interpretation of the rules.
- Years on L permits with an unlimited work contract count always.
- Student B permits are counted as soon as you spend 2 years on a B permit ("Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt") after your studies are completed.

An L permit is not an "Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt" (residence permission for a long stay), because it can be extended for a maximum of two years in total, while a B permit can in theory be extended indefinitely.

So they were not wrong (if strict). Your 5 years (student B+B)+L+L+B is not enough as it's only the three years of L+L+B that count at the moment. Next year when you have (student B+B)+L+L+B+B all 6 years will count and you can apply. It's a pity this jump from 3 to 6 years is discontinuous, but it is what it is by the rules
Thanks everyone for your help. I understand now the clarification that an L permit is not considered a residence permit for a long stay and hence the study years can't be included... Although it sounds like a valid interpretation of the laws, I find that it is quite strict, bureaucratic interpretation of the laws from the migration office especially that I read some cases online who have applied under the same conditions and were handled in a different way.

Thanks again everyone for your help
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Old 04.09.2018, 14:44
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Although it sounds like a valid interpretation of the laws, I find that it is quite strict, bureaucratic interpretation of the laws from the migration office especially that I read some cases online who have applied under the same conditions and were handled in a different way.
Yeah, unfortunately it is. Theoretically you can contest it in courts, but in practice it will take a lot longer than waiting that extra year, not mentioning the legal costs and the small probability of success.
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Old 05.09.2018, 01:10
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Thanks everyone for your help. I understand now the clarification that an L permit is not considered a residence permit for a long stay and hence the study years can't be included... Although it sounds like a valid interpretation of the laws, I find that it is quite strict, bureaucratic interpretation of the laws from the migration office especially that I read some cases online who have applied under the same conditions and were handled in a different way.

Thanks again everyone for your help
After your study and 2 year L permit, you need 2 years work B permit before applying for C. Therefore you will be qualified next year! You can use this year to prepare for your language test. Good luck!
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Old 05.09.2018, 10:39
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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After your study and 2 year L permit, you need 2 years work B permit before applying for C. Therefore you will be qualified next year! You can use this year to prepare for your language test. Good luck!

I'm not sure there is a language test required for a C permit?
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Old 05.09.2018, 10:54
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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I'm not sure there is a language test required for a C permit?
Depends on your nationality
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Old 05.09.2018, 11:58
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Depends on your nationality
As a non-EU, you must obtain the B2 certificate for a C permit. (my case)
My colleague who is EU, only needed the A2 certificate for hers.
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Old 05.09.2018, 12:43
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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As a non-EU, you must obtain the B2 certificate for a C permit. (my case)
My colleague who is EU, only needed the A2 certificate for hers.
No, it's B1 for Zürich. [source: 5.2 here, also I got the C permit with the B1 certificate, the B2 exam results were not yet ready]
It's also more complicated than that for EU citizens, it depends on the particular country. Citizens of the following countries can get a C permit in Zurich after 5 years with just an A2 certificate (or none if German is their mother tongue): Belgium, Germany, Denmark, France, Liechtenstein, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Austria, Portugal, Spain, UK, Finland, Ireland, Luxembourg, Sweden. [source: 8.1 and 8.2 in that linked document, I've dropped the non-EU countries from the list]
If you're e.g. from Poland or the Baltics or whatever EU state not in the list, the requirement is either 10 years and A2 or 5 years or B1.
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Old 05.09.2018, 15:08
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

Is that new then? I did not have to show any certificate for my C permit (and am from one of those EU countries you mentioned)
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Old 05.09.2018, 15:21
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Is that new then? I did not have to show any certificate for my C permit (and am from one of those EU countries you mentioned)
There are two lists of countries in that doc, the citizens of the countries from first one (BE, DE, DK, FR, FL, GR, IT, NL, AT, PT, ES) actually have a right to a C permit after 5 years while citizens the remaining ones are merely eligible to ask for one after 5 years using the 'ordinary' (not 'successfully integrated') process.

Netherlands is on the first list so it seems that this legal right to a C permit overrides any language requirements.
I didn't know that, I thought it only worked when one's mother tongue is German or one attended a school or university in Switzerland etc. So that's good to know.
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Old 05.09.2018, 15:23
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Netherlands is on the first list so it seems that this legal right to a C permit overrides any language requirements.
I didn't know that, I thought it only worked when one's mother tongue is German or one attended a school or university in Switzerland etc. So that's good to know.
Maybe it was sufficient to ask in German for the documentation and have a chat with the lady at the townhall in German?
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Old 05.09.2018, 16:37
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

Quote: <No, it's B1 for Zürich. [source: 5.2 here, also I got the C permit with the B1 certificate, the B2 exam results were not yet ready]>

Oh yes, my mistake, it was the B1 certificate for me too - I am studying for the B2 right now
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Old 05.09.2018, 16:54
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Re: Early C Permit, Non EU

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Thanks everyone for your help. I understand now the clarification that an L permit is not considered a residence permit for a long stay and hence the study years can't be included... Although it sounds like a valid interpretation of the laws, I find that it is quite strict, bureaucratic interpretation of the laws from the migration office especially that I read some cases online who have applied under the same conditions and were handled in a different way.

Thanks again everyone for your help
We got C Permits after 5 years of residency (L + B +B) and I wasn't working on the L. I'm non-EU. I just went back through the dates and our L permit year definately counted for us torwards the 5 years.
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