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  #21  
Old 02.03.2019, 19:02
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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Personally, I am a Swiss citizen for a long time and dont want to claim an exception or entitlement. My post concerns the situation of many well integrated UN spouse and children who have satisfied the basis for citizenship on all integration aspects however, they are today being denied due to a law which did not consider their situation. My post especially concerns hundreds of children who have stayed in country for atleast more than 10 years now but dont stand a chance to gain citizenship due to the new law. I know many of the personally. They are as Swiss as other children of their age and many of them do attend local schools. They feel cheated and feel they cheated of an official identity even though they mentally feel they are as Swiss as other children of their age who have stayed more than 10 years in the country.

it is very easy to dismiss that UN staff get perks, etc.. and saying that their children better go back to their country. The fact pf the matter is that these children have spent considerable amount of time in this country respecting the local culture and values and integrating into these values. Only when one faces these situations they can understand the identity crisis faced by these children.
You know a Palestinian can never become a citizen of Saudi Arabia?

I don't see you complaining about that. Do you hate Palestinians? What have Palestinians ever done to you?

Disgusting.
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  #22  
Old 02.03.2019, 21:10
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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You know a Palestinian can never become a citizen of Saudi Arabia?

I don't see you complaining about that. Do you hate Palestinians? What have Palestinians ever done to you?

Disgusting.

Your response is a verbal abuse. This forum is about Switzerland and Swiss domain .CH. Nothing wrong to fight for human rights elsewhere across globe and nothing disgusting about it. You can take it up if it matters to you.
It does not matter if one is not concerned about the issue I posted on. It is nauseating if people want to throw some random rubbish on these forums on a valid societal issue.

It is better to be silent when there is nothing to contribute. Valuable lesson in your life @Dougal's Breakfast.
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  #23  
Old 02.03.2019, 21:17
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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UN employees get lots of perks, tax free salaries, tax free petrol, a special tax free shop, protection from traffic fines, etc., etc.

Don’t be surprised when the Swiss apply different rules when you want to have your cake and eat it too.

If you don’t like it you can always go back to your own country.
You may not be quite right with this message.
Only UN staff at director level get diplomatic immunity concerning traffic fines and all. This is about 3% of the UN staff in Geneva.

Concerning TAX, it is a misconception that UN staff don't contribute to Swiss taxes. Their country governments do contribute to the taxes to host government.
And, average UN salaries to Swiss based staff are way below the median salaries of Switzerland.

Please check facts before making such statements.
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Old 02.03.2019, 21:29
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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Your response is a verbal abuse. This forum is about Switzerland and Swiss domain .CH. Nothing wrong to fight for human rights elsewhere across globe and nothing disgusting about it. You can take it up if it matters to you.
It does not matter if one is not concerned about the issue I posted on. It is nauseating if people want to throw some random rubbish on these forums on a valid societal issue.
.
You might want to read up on human/civil rights. Acquiring another citizenship is not one of them. Before you accuse others of posting rubbish you may want to have a look at what is a legally right.....
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Old 02.03.2019, 21:31
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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Your response is a verbal abuse. This forum is about Switzerland and Swiss domain .CH. Nothing wrong to fight for human rights elsewhere across globe and nothing disgusting about it. You can take it up if it matters to you.
It does not matter if one is not concerned about the issue I posted on. It is nauseating if people want to throw some random rubbish on these forums on a valid societal issue.

It is better to be silent when there is nothing to contribute. Valuable lesson in your life @Dougal's Breakfast.
Why do you hate Palestinians so much? How do you even sleep at night?

Such a shame.
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  #26  
Old 02.03.2019, 23:43
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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Why do you hate Palestinians so much? How do you even sleep at night?

Such a shame.
It is a shame to assume and make silly statements !

I love Palestinians as much as I love the humanity in the holy name of Christ
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  #27  
Old 02.03.2019, 23:46
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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You might want to read up on human/civil rights. Acquiring another citizenship is not one of them. Before you accuse others of posting rubbish you may want to have a look at what is a legally right.....
Thanks for your note. Will definitely read the legal aspects around human rights. What I meant was the fairness element for children associated in the issue we have talked in this thread.
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Old 03.03.2019, 01:00
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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You may not be quite right with this message.
Only UN staff at director level get diplomatic immunity concerning traffic fines and all. This is about 3% of the UN staff in Geneva.
Well to a certain extent you are correct. Their status doesn’t stop the police from issuing tickets but they cannot be compelled to pay the tickets. One government, the Australian, compels their UN staff to pay all fines. They are the only one. CD plates are a get out of jail free card.

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Concerning TAX, it is a misconception that UN staff don't contribute to Swiss taxes. Their country governments do contribute to the taxes to host government.
So which is it? UN staff contribute to Swiss taxes, or some of their governments contribute to the host country. They are not the same thing

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And, average UN salaries to Swiss based staff are way below the median salaries of Switzerland.
Why wouldn’t they be? You guys don’t pay tax to your commune, canton or Switzerland. And how about your health insurance? Completely outside of the Swiss system.

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Please check facts before making such statements.
Have you read the Vienna treaty/61? Perhaps you should.

You are here as guests, not as immigrants. The Swiss have been nice enough to give you a path to citizenship, but they don’t have to. If you don’t like it, well I don’t really give a sh*t
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  #29  
Old 03.03.2019, 09:24
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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Thanks for your note. Will definitely read the legal aspects around human rights. What I meant was the fairness element for children associated in the issue we have talked in this thread.
The children who have the benefit of a Swiss eduction can enter the labour market and obtain a legal status by their own later on. Their parents are considered diplomatic staff therefore their residence does not lead to any citizenship rights. It's pretty logical and normal.

In some countries there's the rule that diplomatic staff is not allowed to work in one single country for more than four years. So if you think about it more, the UN staff has quite a privileged status. Seems like a comfortable sinecure for life. You owe it to your home countries, and should work towards accomplishing their best interests.
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Old 03.03.2019, 10:53
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

While things have doubtless changed, my (late) good friend was librarian at the UN in Geneva and a German national married to a Swiss. He told me that for tax reasons, and perhaps also the nationality count informally kept by UN administrators, it would not be in his interest to naturalise before retirement.

While his facts differ from yours I find the tax issue compelling. More than 60 years ago my Zurich-based grandfather divorced my New York-based grandmother purely for tax and pension reasons. And that was 50 years before FATCA, which reminds us how personal circumstances and evolving law and national greed and politicians' and bureaucrats' fondness for control do matter.
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Old 03.03.2019, 11:09
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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You are here as guests, not as immigrants. The Swiss have been nice enough to give you a path to citizenship, but they don’t have to. If you don’t like it, well I don’t really give a sh*t
That is unkind. You do not have all the facts. Take this case: X, born in the USA to a Swiss-born mother who lost her Swiss nationality upon naturalisation in the USA is assigned to the US Mission to Geneva where X spends more than 2 years with a carte de l'égitimation, Upon leaving the post in the mid-1990s his mother tells him of an article recently in the Swiss newspaper then (and maybe still) published in N.Y. about facilitated naturalisation. X's years assigned to Geneva (and the time X's children spent at the EcolInt in Geneva) count, along with tourist visits, as time spent in Switzerland to qualify under the 1990s norms for facilitated naturalisation. And why not?

Nationality law in all countries is full of anomalies, accidents of history and (especially in Anglo-American law) court decisions decided on peculiar facts that create new law (think: Morales-Santana case). True also of asylum law which is why lawyers invent, or massage, facts to try to qualify a client for refugee or asylee status.

A book to read: Pierre Immer, La perte de la nationalité suisse par l’écoulement du temps; péremption de la nationalité, Lausanne, Impr. Rencontre, 1964.

But wait, it gets worse: conflict of decisions of the Swiss courts as to the effect in Swiss law of the Nuremberg laws depriving Jews of German citizenship: were the laws so violative of international law that they should be ignored (and hence a Swiss woman married to a German Jewish refugee deprived of her Swiss citizenship and made stateless?) Levita-Mühlstein v. Dépt. féd. de justice et police, Trib. féd., 14 June 1946, A.T.F., 72-I, 1946, p. 407 and Rosenthal v. Eidg. Justiz- und Polizeidepartment, Trib. féd., 8 Oct. 1948, A.T.F., 74-I, 1948, p. 346; and compare, on the revocation of Soviet nationality, Tcherniak v. Tcherniak, Trib. Féd. (2d Civ. Sect.), 15 June 1928, A.T.F., 54-II, 1928, p. 225, 4 Ann. Dig. 62, Clunet, 56.1929.208, note Noël-Henry, reasoning rejected in Lempert v. Bonfol, 60 Déc. de la Cour féd. suisse 67 (1934), 7 Ann. Dig. 290.

Nationality law doesn't have to be fair: it's up to the domestic courts in most cases (even within the EU the CJEU -- and even less the ECtHR -- has limited capacity to review (much less invalidate) Member State nationality law. Although the European Commission is believed to have persuaded Greece to back down in its application of (now abridged) Art. 19 of the Greek Nationality Law to the Ramadanoglou family.

Some countries allow unlimited generations born in the country to be stateless: the Bedoons, the Rohingya (and Native Americans until 1924 although they were at least protégés, as were Filipinos until 1934...) The USA and the UK (at least) allow a second generation born abroad to its citizens to be stateless. And, like you, nobody much cares.
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  #32  
Old 03.03.2019, 19:39
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

Perhaps it was unkind. But it was directed solely at the OP, not at UN staff in general. Most, but not all, of friends that work, or have worked, at international organisations do appreciate the benefits that is/was afforded them as International Civil Servants.
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  #33  
Old 04.03.2019, 10:13
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

This is what I feel based on the sample set from responses received in this forum so far:

a. There is a wide amount of hatred to foreigners who may have fully made their efforts to integrate with the Swiss society. Not one in the sample set of responses supported the case for the new nationality law and what it means to UN children's lack of identity despite them having lived all their life and studied in local school, respecting the values of Swiss culture and having superior local language skills.

Instead I heard opinions passed on that they should go back to their country etc...For these children, Switzerland is HOME and their own country is foreign.
Yes. Vienna convention is for diplomats on short service. Not for permanently recruited diplomats to be based in Geneva. It is not ratified in the Vienna convention.

b. Hatred towards UN staff because citing perks etc..Does this remind us of "Occupy Wall street" mindset ?

I am a naturalised Swiss myself and most of the Geneva's population is composed of foreigners. This trend is not new and has taken shape ever since 16th century when foreigners from many parts of Europe came here and made this place diverse and rich in culture.

I had hoped there were at least a few who could have supported a human centred guidance for hundreds of children affected due to the new Swiss nationality law. I am confident that this sample set of responses does not represent the overall Swiss response to these issues. I am also confident that the nationality law will be amended to provide a path of citizenship to these well integrated children who will make the next generation of Switzerland very proud of them.

Yes. Law can be convoluted but one of the prime objective of the law is to bring the critical understanding of civil society under the legal framework.
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Old 04.03.2019, 10:25
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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a. There is a wide amount of hatred to foreigners who may have fully made their efforts to integrate with the Swiss society.
b. Hatred towards UN staff because citing perks etc..Does this remind us of "Occupy Wall street" mindset ?

I had hoped there were at least a few who could have supported a human centred guidance for hundreds of children affected due to the new Swiss nationality law. I am confident that this sample set of responses does not represent the overall Swiss response to these issues. I am also confident that the nationality law will be amended to provide a path of citizenship to these well integrated children who will make the next generation of Switzerland very proud of them.

Yes. Law can be convoluted but one of the prime objective of the law is to bring the critical understanding of civil society under the legal framework.

You realize that a lot of people here are foreigners?


And no, I have no real empathy for you as the children can apply on their own if they wish to stay here. Simply said: not everyone is well integrated and if they are, simple to apply for citizenship as the years count double (or is that only if you went to a Swiss school).


Why would Switzerland change the law for a couple of kids? Sorry to be blunt but that is how it is.
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Old 04.03.2019, 10:38
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

So Switzerland doesn't offer jus soli. Only about 30 countries do, all but one in the Americas. They do offer a path to Swiss nationality, subject to a number of rules. Children in the Swiss school system have the required periods halved.

Tant pis?
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Old 04.03.2019, 13:31
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

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That is unkind. You do not have all the facts. Take this case: X, born in the USA to a Swiss-born mother who lost her Swiss nationality upon naturalisation in the USA
There was a period where the loss of Swiss citizenship upon acquiring another was very losily interpreted, and finally abolished. But many other countries still have it in their citizenship law. Like Germany.

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But wait, it gets worse: conflict of decisions of the Swiss courts as to the effect in Swiss law of the Nuremberg laws depriving Jews of German citizenship: were the laws so violative of international law that they should be ignored (and hence a Swiss woman married to a German Jewish refugee deprived of her Swiss citizenship and made stateless?) Levita-Mühlstein v. Dépt. féd. de justice et police, Trib. féd., 14 June 1946, A.T.F., 72-I, 1946, p. 407 and Rosenthal v. Eidg. Justiz- und Polizeidepartment, Trib. féd., 8 Oct. 1948, A.T.F., 74-I, 1948, p. 346; and compare, on the revocation of Soviet nationality, Tcherniak v. Tcherniak, Trib. Féd. (2d Civ. Sect.), 15 June 1928, A.T.F., 54-II, 1928, p. 225, 4 Ann. Dig. 62, Clunet, 56.1929.208, note Noël-Henry, reasoning rejected in Lempert v. Bonfol, 60 Déc. de la Cour féd. suisse 67 (1934), 7 Ann. Dig. 290.
Not worse. The Swiss court regarded the Nuremberg racial law against public order and void. It is not uncommon that another state does not recognize the renunciation (forced or voluntarily) of the citizenship. The women was not stateless but German (in the eyes of the Swiss). With introduction of the German Grundgesetz on 24 May 1949 and its Art. 116 this was also the official view of the German State. The problem was the uncertain period between 1945 and 1949. 1946 the Federal court expected that the situation will be resolved much sooner, and only in 1948 saw themselves that it may still take some time until a which have been illegally deprived of the German citizenship will be reinstated. My family has been affected by this cluster as well.

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Some countries allow unlimited generations born in the country to be stateless: the Bedoons, the Rohingya (and Native Americans until 1924 although they were at least protégés, as were Filipinos until 1934...) The USA and the UK (at least) allow a second generation born abroad to its citizens to be stateless. And, like you, nobody much cares.
Many care. Such a child can get Swiss citizenship after 5 years of stay.
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Old 04.03.2019, 21:26
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Re: UN Staff and Swiss Permit

Hated? What hatred?

People are stating facts. Some children of UN staff go to local schools. Many don't. Some UN staff pay income taxes. Most don't. I suppose you could argue that a few posts have a tinge of envy over the taxation thing but you're really stretching when you call it hatred.

The Swiss have continually voted to make immigration and citizenship more difficult. That's their right as citizens, and the government writes the rules based on how the people vote. You claim to be Swiss. You should know this.

In addition, it's not as if citizenship is 100% impossible for UN employees and their families. The SEM spells out how one can obtain a B and later a C permit, even if that person was a child of a UN employee:

https://www.eda.admin.ch/missions/mi...functions.html

Once a person leaves UN employment, if they're EU they can still stay here on B or even C permit, provided they can support themselves. Non-EUs have a tougher time, but that's true for non-EUs out in the private sector too.

Once a person has the C, naturalization is the next step they can pursue.

It's true that one cannot hold a carte de legitimation and a B or C permit at the same time. This is not new and it's based on agreements the Swiss government has with all the UN orgs.
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