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  #41  
Old 15.08.2019, 15:49
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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What was your actual renewal process? Just fill a form and pay? Anything specific like checking to see if you are employed etc.?
Fill in the form, take it in to the commune office, go back a few days later to collect new permits and pay for them.
No checks at all. I suspect there may be cantonal differences, we’ve never been asked for proof of employment.
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Old 15.08.2019, 15:50
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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What was your actual renewal process? Just fill a form and pay? Anything specific like checking to see if you are employed etc.?
The Swiss will love how you plan ahead. You just got your C and you're already making sure you'll have all the correct documentation, etc. for renewal in 5 years!
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  #43  
Old 15.08.2019, 16:10
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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The Swiss will love how you plan ahead. You just got your C and you're already making sure you'll have all the correct documentation, etc. for renewal in 5 years!
That's right! I just want to know my rights having a C permit and what to expect for renewal when the time comes, but everything can change in 5 years anyway, so what applies today could be completely different 5 years from now
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  #44  
Old 15.08.2019, 17:17
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Not any more, no. New rules have made it more difficult to get renewals.
Nope, the rules for renewal haven't changed at all.

The new rules have introduced a possibility for a C permit holder to be put back on B in case they aren't integrated, but the law article for this is worded as a new subcase of C permit revocation which is always initiated by the authorities based on whatever new information they have.
For example, if you have been receiving social welfare, the Sozialamt is obliged to report this to the Migrationsamt. Same, if you commit a crime and get a criminal record, that will become known to the Migrationsamt. If you're not integrated in some grave way that will be reported to the proper authorities without your involvement (by the Betreibungsamt if you rack up debts, by the school authorities if you don't let your child shake hands with teachers or whatever etc.).

If you are not reported of somehow being not integrated, the C renewal process is trivial. It is not even a renewal, unlike L/B permits a C permit is unlimited and unconditional (Art 34.1 AIG). It's just renewing the document that confirms your right of residence, not the right itself. You cannot be asked for anything more than basically your signature when applying in good faith.

It's another story however, if you're not integrated or the authorities suspect that your center of life is outside Switzerland. But it's not their default assumption to suspect that and they need to have material proof that you'd run afoul of something regarding the above.
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  #45  
Old 15.08.2019, 19:04
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Nope, the rules for renewal haven't changed at all.

The new rules have introduced a possibility for a C permit holder to be put back on B in case they aren't integrated, but the law article for this is worded as a new subcase of C permit revocation which is always initiated by the authorities based on whatever new information they have.
For example, if you have been receiving social welfare, the Sozialamt is obliged to report this to the Migrationsamt. Same, if you commit a crime and get a criminal record, that will become known to the Migrationsamt. If you're not integrated in some grave way that will be reported to the proper authorities without your involvement (by the Betreibungsamt if you rack up debts, by the school authorities if you don't let your child shake hands with teachers or whatever etc.).

If you are not reported of somehow being not integrated, the C renewal process is trivial. It is not even a renewal, unlike L/B permits a C permit is unlimited and unconditional (Art 34.1 AIG). It's just renewing the document that confirms your right of residence, not the right itself. You cannot be asked for anything more than basically your signature when applying in good faith.

It's another story however, if you're not integrated or the authorities suspect that your center of life is outside Switzerland. But it's not their default assumption to suspect that and they need to have material proof that you'd run afoul of something regarding the above.
So you're saying that no language requirement is needed. I could renew in 4 years time without having that so long as I'm a good law abiding resident. Somehow I don't think so. Happy to be proved wrong of course.
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  #46  
Old 16.08.2019, 15:04
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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So you're saying that no language requirement is needed. I could renew in 4 years time without having that so long as I'm a good law abiding resident. Somehow I don't think so. Happy to be proved wrong of course.
Ah, right.
I was writing the above having in mind the default case where a person with a C permit had had to prove their language skills when getting their C permit (with a certificate or going to school here or whatnot). In that case it doesn't seem possible for the authorities to assume that they could have lost their language skills in the 5 years after getting a C permit.

EDIT: the following paragraph is incorrect, sorry, I got confused.

But you're a UK national, right? So you got a non-early C permit in just 5 years didn't have to bring a language certificate for it. That's because Switzerland and the UK have a mutual people settlement agreement providing for just that.
Now the good news is that international agreements trump national law whenever the national law is more restrictive. The Free Movement of People trumps the restrictive AIG law that we folks from the third world are subject to as far as L/B permits are concerned.
Similarly, the settlement agreement between the UK and Switzerland trumps the AIG/VZAE provisions for C permits, including the new 'integration' paragraphs.
Moreover, as it was a bilateral agreement between just the UK and CH it is unlikely to be affected by whatever Brexit brings.

I don't think that agreement has been rescinded (though honestly I didn't bother to check :)). There's Belgianmum earlier in this thread who I assume is Belgian, and has renewed the C permit under the new rules with no problems. Belgium has the same kind of settlement agreement with CH as the UK.

I really don't know what other kind of proof would persuade you. :)
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  #47  
Old 16.08.2019, 15:10
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

I'm just trying to understand what the situation is for long term C permit holders now. We've had ours since 2003, renewed them again last year so we're fine for a few more years. What's never been mentioned with these new laws is whether they're only going to apply to new applicants or retrospectively as well. And yes, we're UK.
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  #48  
Old 16.08.2019, 15:11
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

The important thing is that there is no such thing as renewing your permanent residence in Switzerland. Unlike L/B permits, where the residence permission expires together with the permit document, a C permit confers an unlimited right of residence. When the C permit card/booklet expires nobody will kick its holder out of the country, they will be just fined 1000 CHF for renewing late (and won't be able to travel if they need a visa to be here as a tourist). It's the same as you not ceasing to be British when your passport expires, except that a C permit is far easier to lose e.g. when moving abroad or committing a crime.

Taking away that right requires the authorities to actively pursue the C permit revocation (unlike an L/B permit which can be just not renewed).
All possible grounds for revocation are listed in Art. 63 AIG.
One of the grounds is indeed not being integrated in the sense of Art. 58a which includes lacking language skills. They are specified as A2 verbal and A1 written in Art. 60.2 VZAE.

Now is the part that got me confused. UK nationals are currently required to submit language certificates for the C permit. Was that not the case in 2003?
In this case I guess it is remotely possible that you might be asked to provide an A2/A1 certificate in the future.

However: Art. 60 VZAE specifies language requirements for the granting (Erteilung) of permanent residence (embodied by the C permit). That granting had happened in 2003 for you.
As mentioned before, there's legally no such thing as "renewal" of permanent residence, it's permanent. There's only replacing an expired document. That is so trivial that it's not spelled out in any way in any of the laws or SEM guidance, except for the mention that the one thing that the authorities want to verify when issuing a new C permit document is that you still actually live in Switzerland.
Laws generally do not apply retroactively (and it's usually very explicitly spelled out when they are). That's why I think that you're safe from additional requirements.

Last edited by NichtsBesonders; 16.08.2019 at 15:37.
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  #49  
Old 16.08.2019, 15:26
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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I'm just trying to understand what the situation is for long term C permit holders now. We've had ours since 2003, renewed them again last year so we're fine for a few more years. What's never been mentioned with these new laws is whether they're only going to apply to new applicants or retrospectively as well. And yes, we're UK.
It applies for renewals of C permits but only for spouse and dependants of the main permit holder. Your husband won’t need the language certificate but you will so you should probably start practising now.
If both spouses have their permits on their own merits (rather than via family reunification) then neither of them need the certificate.
For children in local schools for five years or more the certificate is not necessary either.


Plus those from the exempt countries due to the agreements with Switzerland are still exempt obviously.
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Old 18.08.2019, 11:52
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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What was your actual renewal process? Just fill a form and pay? Anything specific like checking to see if you are employed etc.?
Form, payment and up-to-date piccie from machine in foyer
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  #51  
Old 18.08.2019, 12:28
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Form, payment and up-to-date piccie from machine in foyer
Never been asked to change the photo but we are EU so they just change the paper in the right hand side of the permit.
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Old 18.08.2019, 12:30
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

Had to change the picture when I renewed the C, could be a Kantonal thing?
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Old 18.08.2019, 12:41
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

Zurich chap explained that features change over time - same reason yiu need new pics for passport renewal...
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Old 18.08.2019, 13:25
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Had to change the picture when I renewed the C, could be a Kantonal thing?
Maybe, we have had the same photo for 10 years.

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Zurich chap explained that features change over time - same reason yiu need new pics for passport renewal...

Our photos are 10 years old and to be perfectly honest we really don’t look any different from now.
The teenager was requested to provide a new one which was understandable as he was only 10 in the original photo.
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Old 18.08.2019, 13:41
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Our photos are 10 years old and to be perfectly honest we really don’t look any different from now.
That's what everyone likes to believe....
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  #56  
Old 18.08.2019, 13:42
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

We got asked for new photos when we renewed last year. Before that it was either 2003 when we first got our C permits or we used the same photos since we first got our B permits back in 1998.
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Old 18.08.2019, 13:51
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Now is the part that got me confused. UK nationals are currently required to submit language certificates for the C permit. Was that not the case in 2003?
In this case I guess it is remotely possible that you might be asked to provide an A2/A1 certificate in the future.
The law changed Jan 1st 2019. And yes it is remotely possible that they might request in a distant future an language certificate or least enrollment in a language course for permit C extension. The law would permit for it.

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However: Art. 60 VZAE specifies language requirements for the granting (Erteilung) of permanent residence (embodied by the C permit). That granting had happened in 2003 for you.
As mentioned before, there's legally no such thing as "renewal" of permanent residence, it's permanent. There's only replacing an expired document. That is so trivial that it's not spelled out in any way in any of the laws or SEM guidance, except for the mention that the one thing that the authorities want to verify when issuing a new C permit document is that you still actually live in Switzerland.
Laws generally do not apply retroactively (and it's usually very explicitly spelled out when they are). That's why I think that you're safe from additional requirements.
Extension of C is handled in Art. 63 VZAE https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a63 As we can see no explicit language requirements are mentioned for extension of permit C.

Downgrade to B in is handled in Art. 63 Abs. 2 AIG https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a63 Art. 62a VZAE https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...ndex.html#a62a which both refer back to the integrations conditions (which includes language proficiency) set by the law in Art. 58a AIG https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a58a

IMHO: A downgrade to B solely because of lack of language proficiency is rather unlikely. If a downgrade happens lack of language will be one factor of many others (Criminality, depended on social service, etc.).
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  #58  
Old 18.08.2019, 15:18
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

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Extension of C is handled in Art. 63 VZAE https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...index.html#a63 As we can see no explicit language requirements are mentioned for extension of permit C.
I somehow have repeatedly failed to get across the point that there is no extension of the permission to stay associated with permit C, there's only renewing the document. Note that the title of Art. 63 is "... Verlängerung der Gültigkeitsdauer des Ausweises für die Niederlassungsbewilligung". Compare this with "Gesuch um Verlängerung der Aufenthaltsbewilligung" in Art. 59 VZAE concerning B permits.
This is a fundamental difference and not a typo.

The Niederlassungsbewilligung itself is unlimited and unconditional (Art 34.1 AIG).
Leaving aside the question of whether "extending" an already unlimited permission is actually well-defined, the "unconditional" part means just that, that it cannot be conditioned on anything, including providing a language certificate, once you received a C permit for the first time.

The only legal way for the authorities to require a language certificate from a person who already has a C permit, had obtained it without a language certificate and is not exempt due to nationality/going to school in CH/whatever is to decide that the person doesn't fulfill the integration requirements of Art 58a AIG and order a downgrade from C to B, adding a integration condition on the new B permit that they must provide an A2 certificate when extending the B permit.
I guess officially threatening with the downgrade (Androhung des Widerrufes der Niederlassungsbewilligung being the official German name for the procedure) with the requirement that one brings a language certificate soon will work too, that way one wouldn't have to lose the C permit for 5 years.

But as you said, I highly doubt that anyone in Medea's situation will be subject to those measures if the only integration requirement missing is the language certificate.
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  #59  
Old 18.08.2019, 15:29
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Re: New language requirements for B/C permit renewal?

Well, I guess we'll find out in a few years' time. Assuming we're still here to start with. We both need to do more to learn the language even if it turns out our permits aren't reliant on that.
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Old 31.12.2019, 14:26
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2020 language requirements for permits

After reading through several articles about the new law changes, I'm still not sure the full effect of it on EU/EFTA nationals. Most of the points are fully addressed very specifically to non-EU nationals and dependent-permit holders.

Overall,

- Does it mean that EU/EFTA nationals currently on L-permit who want to upgrade to B-permit in 2020 need to know one of the languages? Assuming these nationals do not fall under any of the exceptions.

- Will it mean EU/EFTA nationals currently on B-permit and want to extend it later, around 2023 will need to know one of the three languages?

- Since there will be canton-specific rules in place regarding the language rules, when is this information going to be released?
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