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  #21  
Old 24.01.2019, 19:42
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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The SEM Handbook (it is only a guideline, which might be challenged in court, but it is the best we have how they will handle it) specifies:


For sure it is an official court order. But also an entry into any national birth registry. "Approved type of recognition" most likely pertains to a recognition according UK or Swiss law. Under Swiss law it must be done at a Swiss civil registry office https://www.ch.ch/en/how-acknowlede-paternity/

If any of the previous correspondences from 1989 fulfill the requirement of a statutory declaration of acknowledgement of parentage as required by The Statutory Declarations Act 1835 is open to question.

I have no idea and clue about UK/English/Welsh/Scottish etc. law (Henceforth referred as UK law). It is enough that I know that next to UK there is also English/Welsh/Scottish etc. law. Also the question remains why the birth registry was not updated before 2018. Maybe because the letters from 1989 did not fulfill the required formalities? Also you will have to check if according UK law the statutory declaration is enough to establish paternity or if it must be entered into the birth register.
8216;with retroactive effect to the date of birth of the child8217; 8211; there could be a case here to state that the birth registration in Switzerland has effect from the date of my birth?

There was no court order as at the time my mother was in England and the agreement was settled by solicitors outside of court. In the UK court would be the last resort if an agreement could not be reached, perhaps this is different in Switzerland and therefore there was an oversight.

I will investigate if any of the previous correspondences from 1989 fulfill the requirement of a statutory declaration of acknowledgement of parentage as required by The Statutory Declarations Act 1835.

At the time of my birth, my father was living in Switzerland and my mother in the UK. I was born in the UK. It was an oversight that he did not register my birth in Switzerland, not due to the letters not meeting requirements. What are the required formalities in Switzerland, if registered at birth?

My birth has been registered in the UK and includes my father. As part of my citizenship application this uncovered that my birth was not registered in Switzerland. To register the birth in Switzerland, I had to submit a copy of my UK birth certificate, with my father included on it. My father was not previously included on my UK birth certificate, so this required a statutory declaration to be completed. Therefore, as of 2018 both birth certificates now have my father included.
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  #22  
Old 24.01.2019, 19:43
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Re: Facilitated Naturalisation Interview - London - Swiss Embassy

Hi, good luck on your quest.
what Tom said is very right & he is quoting the federal law. Maybe u get lucky.holding thumbs for you.
Prepare..? how good is you schwiitzerduutsch? or German/French/italian, very important.
Something I learned from a Business Etiquette Book. NEVER MAKE SMALL TALK WHEN DOING BUSINESS WITH THE SWISS . Don't ask how they are or get personal in any way, dont comment on the family picture, but do comment on a picture of switzerland. Au d'schwiitz isch scho es schoes land & look dreamy while saying it. dont be sleezy though
also try to phrase your sentences to sound like it would profit them and not so it sounds like they have to 'give you something.
In a simple manner explained. the waitress can ask, what can I get you or what would you like. What can I get you psychologically gives the customer the overhand & calls for delegation& good feelings, what would you like puts the customer under pressure as our minds are full of lots of thing we would like & when asked its nearly stressfull. not sure that example really helps. if asked why you want to be swiss, do mention that switzerland is a well structured country with intelligent (dont mention Liberal) laws & that you love the intellect & correctness of the swiss people & you would feel honored to be included in that... dont mention the perks it would give you.
BTW are you really sure you want to be swiss & live here. Do you realise what life is like here? there are 100 forums about why its so hard to make friends in Switzerland, lots of rules & regulations.
Btw. just remembered.. Basel City started a campaign for foreigners 'how to be Swiss /the swiss way' or something like that. they are trying to fix the non swiss behaviour.. google it might find some advice for your meeting. good luck
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  #23  
Old 24.01.2019, 20:48
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

On the webpage you have provided a link to - https://www.ch.ch/en/how-acknowlede-paternity/ - it states 'If the mother is a foreign national and the father acknowledging paternity is Swiss, the child obtains Swiss citizenship from the father.' This does not stipulate the acknowledgement of paternity must be at birth, however perhaps this is a new law?
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  #24  
Old 24.01.2019, 22:01
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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On the webpage you have provided a link to - https://www.ch.ch/en/how-acknowlede-paternity/ - it states 'If the mother is a foreign national and the father acknowledging paternity is Swiss, the child obtains Swiss citizenship from the father.' This does not stipulate the acknowledgement of paternity must be at birth, however perhaps this is a new law?
It's an old law, still valid, must be done before 22.

Your only chance now is the standard way.

Tom
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Old 25.01.2019, 09:57
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

Hi again, You have got lots of legal advice from the other forumites so I'll add the more simple bits.
1. Remember that although it might be an informal meeting, people that work at embassies are politicians, & their job is to represent & keep Switzerland's interest at heart & because like many 'swiss living outside of the country, they are very swissisch cause we take the good old values & swiss ways with & as we don't live in the chaos of change, the swissness is forever present in an inborn way.
2. Don't forget to ask if in case your application for citizenship is rejected, if you can still apply for a work/ study/permit (that's something you never mentioned, what kind of Job do you do, studied etc)
Perhaps u have a 'scarce skill that switzerland is looking for, if so do build that into your conversation. http://adeccogroup.ch/en/studies/swi...ge-index-2018/ also check if there are a lot of vacancies for the job you do. even if you weren't fully eligible for citizenship maybe they will consider as you have skills they need.
3. If you don't have a decent suit & tie, buy one & look executivisch.
4. When the interviewer is talking about law a.b.c, let him finish, think about it & state that you understand. Don't argue or say but law d.e.f says .... rather ask if the law provides for any exclusions/alternative that might pertain to you. don't get angry
5. Did you ever join a Swiss club/any swiss organisation, if yes mention that
6. Check the Swiss Embassy in London Website. the Brexit problem might add to your application problem substantially
https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/u...rexit-faq.html
7. Don't have a 'drink or 'zmoke' before you have the meeting, the interviewer will notice & it you are a smoker, peppermints or mouth spray are a must (no gum!) make sure your clothes & hair is well aired & clean, don't forget the eau de cologne55357;56846;
8. The motto for that day, should be cool, calm & collected
good Luck 55358;56606;
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  #26  
Old 25.01.2019, 10:49
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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On the webpage you have provided a link to - https://www.ch.ch/en/how-acknowlede-paternity/ - it states 'If the mother is a foreign national and the father acknowledging paternity is Swiss, the child obtains Swiss citizenship from the father.' This does not stipulate the acknowledgement of paternity must be at birth, however perhaps this is a new law?
Although ch.ch is a website from the Swiss government some particular cases explained are simplified, according the normal process and not explained in the very finest details of the actual law.

Quote:
8216;with retroactive effect to the date of birth of the child8217; 8211; there could be a case here to state that the birth registration in Switzerland has effect from the date of my birth?
Yes, retroactively. Like he was the legal father from date of birth. Same actually applies in case of adoption. But unfortunately this does not apply for citizenship related maters, which has it own rules and regulations.

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My birth has been registered in the UK and includes my father. As part of my citizenship application this uncovered that my birth was not registered in Switzerland. To register the birth in Switzerland, I had to submit a copy of my UK birth certificate, with my father included on it. My father was not previously included on my UK birth certificate, so this required a statutory declaration to be completed. Therefore, as of 2018 both birth certificates now have my father included.
Here lies your problem. Up till 2018 you had no father or at least not the actual Swiss father in your birth certificate. Blame your mother that she never updated the birth register entry. Blame yourself that you did not check yourself at maturity or at least before you applied for Swiss citizenship. As said, check with a solicitor if any of the 1989 documents have any legal bearing to establish paternity according UK law and might be deemed as "approved type of recognition." If yes, you have much better chance to be successful if you appeal.
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  #27  
Old 26.01.2019, 00:30
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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Although ch.ch is a website from the Swiss government some particular cases explained are simplified, according the normal process and not explained in the very finest details of the actual law.


Yes, retroactively. Like he was the legal father from date of birth. Same actually applies in case of adoption. But unfortunately this does not apply for citizenship related maters, which has it own rules and regulations.

Does this mean that all my legal rights will be the same as if from birth now the birth is registered in Switzerland? Are there any other registrations I should check have been completed that you are aware of? Conscious the birth registration was not completed so would like to ensure all other registrations are now as they should be. I have asked the Embassy to clarify this also.

Here lies your problem. Up till 2018 you had no father or at least not the actual Swiss father in your birth certificate. Blame your mother that she never updated the birth register entry. Blame yourself that you did not check yourself at maturity or at least before you applied for Swiss citizenship. As said, check with a solicitor if any of the 1989 documents have any legal bearing to establish paternity according UK law and might be deemed as "approved type of recognition." If yes, you have much better chance to be successful if you appeal.
I will check this with a solicitor. I have called Cellmark Diagnostics (DNA testing) and the Registrar Office for birth registration following your message. Cellmark verbally confirmed that DNA testing would absolutely be proof of paternity in UK Law. The Registrar Office confirmed that registering the birth in 2018, would still prove paternity back to my year of birth in the UK.

The Statutory Declaration of Acknowledgement of Parentage was completed in 2018 to add my father to the UK birth certificate, this was countersigned by a lawyer in Luzern. Does the Statutory Declaration of Acknowledgement apply in Switzerland? I will try to find out if this is legal bearing to establish UK paternity from birth (1989).

The Cellmark DNA testing report specifically confirms [name removed] as my father and this is also confirmed in a letter by the solicitor, and the firm is regulated by the Law Society. Cellmark are accredited by the Ministry of Justice as a body that may carry out parentage tests (otherwise called DNA Testing or Paternity Testing) as directed by the civil courts in England and Wales under section 20 of the Family Law Reform Act 1969.

For information - I was born in the UK, did not meet my father until I was 16, therefore my mother did not know the requirement to register my birth in Switzerland. It is completely out of my control if my birth was not registered in Switzerland when I was a child, and only became known to me in 2018, at which point I addressed this.

The DNA testing was completed, my father acknowledgement paternity, and a mutual financial agreement was reached between my parents’ solicitors representing both parties. Therefore there was no reason for the case to be taken to court. This is common in the UK, as it is for the father to not be added to the birth certificate from birth if there is a difficult situation at the time.

Thanks for all your information which has been extremely helpful.

Last edited by Ace1; 26.01.2019 at 12:20. Reason: Name removed
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  #28  
Old 26.01.2019, 15:44
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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Although ch.ch is a website from the Swiss government some particular cases explained are simplified, according the normal process and not explained in the very finest details of the actual law.


Yes, retroactively. Like he was the legal father from date of birth. Same actually applies in case of adoption. But unfortunately this does not apply for citizenship related maters, which has it own rules and regulations.


Here lies your problem. Up till 2018 you had no father or at least not the actual Swiss father in your birth certificate. Blame your mother that she never updated the birth register entry. Blame yourself that you did not check yourself at maturity or at least before you applied for Swiss citizenship. As said, check with a solicitor if any of the 1989 documents have any legal bearing to establish paternity according UK law and might be deemed as "approved type of recognition." If yes, you have much better chance to be successful if you appeal.
I have located 'Actually, in section 2.4.3.3. of the administrative manual on citizenship (see the link to chapter 2 in the link I provided previously), it is noted that the concept of a "reasonable excuse" in this context is interpreted "very generously" and that in fact the Federal Tribunal has established that ignorance of the law constitutes a valid excuse.' from another post. I cannot find section 2.4.3.3 of the administrative manual after searching. Does this only apply to specific areas, or is there potential that ignorance of the law constitutes a valid excuse that the birth was not registered?
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Old 26.01.2019, 16:16
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Re: Citizenship application rejected - Swiss Father

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For information - I was born in the UK, did not meet my father until I was 16, therefore my mother did not know the requirement to register my birth in Switzerland. It is completely out of my control if my birth was not registered in Switzerland when I was a child, and only became known to me in 2018, at which point I addressed this.
Your mother did not know because she chose to never look into this, if she had any interest in this she would have known.

The law gives people like you with interest in Swiss citizenship a timeframe to correct such up to their 22nd year, you unfortunately for yourself developed this interest to late.
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