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Old 23.09.2019, 08:01
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Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

I was wondering if anyone has any experience with this in Switzerland? Say a parent applies for Swiss citizenship and the children in the family are eligible however one doesn’t apply for them, would this count against the application either directly or indirectly? Is it something that is frowned upon?
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Old 23.09.2019, 11:58
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

As far as I'm aware, there is no obligation to apply for naturalisation for the whole family, though you would be asked why you didn't.

In fact, unless the children are over 18, why wouldn't you apply for the whole family??
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Old 23.09.2019, 12:08
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

It should not matter. But, here what the law says:

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Art. 30 Inclusion of children

The applicant's minor children are normally included in the naturalisation application if they live with the applicant. In the case of children over the age of 12, compliance with the requirements of Articles 11 and 12 must be verified independently and autonomously and in a manner appropriate to the age of the child.
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a30

Be at least prepared that some question might be asked and have an explanation ready why they are not included in the parents application.
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Old 23.09.2019, 13:23
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

Thanks for the info!

Reason not to apply for whole family is that you are taking a decision that will have an impact on your kids in later life. Perhaps this is something they should decide themselves when old enough to do so, especially if you have boys who will be expected to do military service one day or pay an expensive penalty if they don’t.
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Old 23.09.2019, 14:48
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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is that you are taking a decision that will have an impact on your kids in later life.
This could be looked at the other way too...

I'm taking a guess that you are British by your user name... if you are and Brexit happens... if your kids wanted to work outside Switzerland at 18, as non-eu citizens they would have a really hard time then coming back to live in Switzerland as they would have lost their C-permit. Yes they could apply for citizenship at 18, but then they'd have to delay their plans by years whilst waiting for it to come through. If you're from another EU country, this wouldn't be such an issue, but they'd still lose C-permit if they left the country and reset clock somewhat for citizenship applications in the future.
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Old 23.09.2019, 15:55
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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Perhaps this is something they should decide themselves when old enough to do so, especially if you have boys who will be expected to do military service one day or pay an expensive penalty if they don’t.
It's not expensive.

Tom
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Old 23.09.2019, 16:13
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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Thanks for the info!

Reason not to apply for whole family is that you are taking a decision that will have an impact on your kids in later life. Perhaps this is something they should decide themselves when old enough to do so, especially if you have boys who will be expected to do military service one day or pay an expensive penalty if they don’t.
This is a decision that could impact your kids in later life if you don't apply for them. To have a Swiss passport gives them currently unfettered access to the EU and the job market. Both Britain and Switzerland allow dual nationality so that will have no bearing.

If your kids leave Switzerland after they have become Swiss, they will not be called up to do military service. Only if they come back to live here. There is no tax implication either, unless, once again, they are living in Switzerland.

The only extra expense they will have is paying for the renewal of two passports instead of one!
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Old 23.09.2019, 16:44
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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The only extra expense they will have is paying for the renewal of two passports instead of one!
No obligation to have a Swiss passport or ID. Theoretically this cost could be saved.
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Old 23.09.2019, 16:56
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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There is no tax implication either, unless, once again, they are living in Switzerland.
When did this change?

A Swiss friend had to pay military tax while living in the US, though it wasn't much after deductions (here it is based on gross, there there was all kinds of stuff he could deduct before they calculated it).

Tom
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Old 23.09.2019, 17:13
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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When did this change?
1995.

But to be exempt you must be either:
a) have been abroad for more then 3 years.
b) doing in a given year military duty or paying exempt tax abroad
c) in a foreign reserve after performing training abroad.

Legge federale sulla tassa d'esenzione dall'obbligo militare Art. 4a
https://www.admin.ch/opc/it/classifi...index.html#a4a
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Old 23.09.2019, 17:19
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

Kids have EU passports already so that side of matters doesn’t enter the equation. I myself fully support military service however I don’t think it’s right for me to take that decision on kids behalf. 3% of your taxable income for 10 plus years is no small amount either.
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Old 23.09.2019, 17:44
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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When did this change?

A Swiss friend had to pay military tax while living in the US, though it wasn't much after deductions (here it is based on gross, there there was all kinds of stuff he could deduct before they calculated it).

Tom
AFAIK ages ago. Decades.

You have to pay for the first three years you're abroad. However the clock ticks regardless of your age. So if you emigrate at age 14, say, you never pay because by the time you're old enough you've already been abroad for the full three years.

Alternatively, if you reside in the country of your dual nationality and fulfill your duty there (military service, civil service, or tax) no tax is due in Switzerland.
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Old 23.09.2019, 17:45
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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Kids have EU passports already so that side of matters doesn’t enter the equation. I myself fully support military service however I don’t think it’s right for me to take that decision on kids behalf. 3% of your taxable income for 10 plus years is no small amount either.
I understand your reasoning, but I wonder if it would be a tough sell where you live. Part of requesting naturalization is that you respect the laws here and abide by them. For now, military service for males is the law. If you say you don't want to have your kids naturalize because they might not want to be in the military many years down the line, I don't know how well that would go down. In some villages it could be a disaster. In a bigger city, maybe no big deal.

It's your choice but of course you could also discuss with the kids now, couldn't you? You say you don't want to decide military service for them, but your post implies you do want to decide citizenship for them.

At the same time...I think you're overthinking it. These days if one doesn't want to do military service it's not that hard to get out of. You can do civil service instead (civildienst?) or pay the fine.

Maybe by the time your kids are old enough, the mandatory bit will have gone by the wayside.
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Old 23.09.2019, 18:50
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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3% of your taxable income for 10 plus years is no small amount either.
When did it go up to 3%?

Tom
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Old 26.09.2019, 20:59
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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When did it go up to 3%?

Tom
Dunno. There was discussion about some adjustments a couple/few years ago, but I didn't care about the details. You'd have to look it up.
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Old 26.09.2019, 22:01
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

Even EU citizens' free access to live in Switzerland is not unlimited, but subject to certain conditions, for example, having a job and being able to support oneself, or studying here.

What would happen if one of your children, having turned 18, chose to have a gap-year, and wanted to spend it living at home but not employed, for example by working in charitable organisation? What would happen if a major child became ill, and needed to [return to] live at home, but could neither work nor study? Or if you became long-term ill, and an adult child wanted to stay with you to nurse you? Or if one child were employed here, and the other wanted to visit, extensively, from abroad? Or if a child were preparing their next step, and you wanted to help them by letting them spend six months staying with you while they develop an app, or finish a novel or read before registering for a doctorate?

Wouldn't you like your children, as adults, to be free to join you at any time?

If at all possible, I think it is wise to enable the parents and the children to have the same cititzenships. This gives them the right to choose to live in the same country, if ever they should want to do so.

You never know what life will bring, and the possibility of a military tax (which seems likely to be phased out, at some point) seems a relatively small price to pay for the privilege of a citizenship.
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Old 27.09.2019, 11:01
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

Everything is a small price doropfiz when one doesn’t have to pay oneself. By not applying for citizenship now doesn’t mean the door would be shut until they’re 18. When they’re old enough to understand the concept and what it means for them I would fully support their applications.

So from the lack of responses, I assume that no one has any experience of this?
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Old 27.09.2019, 11:12
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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Everything is a small price doropfiz when one doesn’t have to pay oneself. By not applying for citizenship now doesn’t mean the door would be shut until they’re 18. When they’re old enough to understand the concept and what it means for them I would fully support their applications.

So from the lack of responses, I assume that no one has any experience of this?
Given that it's probably not a normal approach to citizenship (i.e. applying only for yourself and not your kids), it's unlikely that there are many similar experiences.

You could contact the relevant authority, find out what their position is and report it back to the thread for anyone's future reference.
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Old 27.09.2019, 12:43
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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Everything is a small price doropfiz when one doesn’t have to pay oneself. By not applying for citizenship now doesn’t mean the door would be shut until they’re 18.
You cannot know that. What we do see, in many countries of which Switzerland is one, that the conditions to be met to gain citizenship are becoming successively more and more stringent, excluding more and more people.

The laws that are in place now may mean that the children could apply later, before they turn 18. But those laws may change by the time they get there, and then the door may, indeed, be shut.

As to the small price, I suppose that is relative, something to weigh up against the relational matters I mentioned. In any case, if, later, your naturalised Swiss adult children were to decide that the burden they bear (of military service or military tax) because you had forced Swiss citizenship upon them, is too great, they will then be free to renounce the Swiss citizenship and walk away through a door which is unlikely ever to be shut.

I have never, ever met a person who said: "I'm so glad that my parents didn't apply for an citizenship for me, when they had the option to do so." But over the years I have met quite a number who lived with the terrible disappointment, sometimes bitterness, that their parents had neglected to seize the chance when it was still there. And I have seen several families heart-wrenchingly torn apart because they were not able to live in the same country, in just the circumstances in which they would most have needed and wanted to do so.
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Old 27.09.2019, 12:56
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Re: Naturalisation – penalty for not applying for entire family at the same time?

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I have never, ever met a person who said: "I'm so glad that my parents didn't apply for an citizenship for me, when they had the option to do so."
I know two people who would say just that. One lived in South Africa as a child, the other in the United States. Both were eligible for citizenship and both are very grateful that they didn't have citizenship of their host country forced upon them.
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