Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 11.10.2019, 20:28
JDB JDB is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 17 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
JDB has become a little unpopularJDB has become a little unpopular
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

(It's OK to be confused with legal issues, I think that's rather common. And in a legal context, "IS" can be contentious and a matter of which side presents the best argument to an arbitrator. But that's not this forum, so I won't answer further.

Instead I stick to my request for advice on experienced legal assistance, and there are some good info leads above - thanks! After all, if I didn't have a good reason to ask, I wouldn't. Thanks.)
Reply With Quote
This user groans at JDB for this post:
  #22  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:02
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,445
Groaned at 327 Times in 244 Posts
Thanked 8,941 Times in 3,919 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
(It's OK to be confused with legal issues, I think that's rather common. And in a legal context, "IS" can be contentious and a matter of which side presents the best argument to an arbitrator. But that's not this forum, so I won't answer further.
And there speaks the voice of entitlement without experience... ah well a couple of thousand francs lighter and you'll be wiser.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:10
JDB JDB is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 17 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
JDB has become a little unpopularJDB has become a little unpopular
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Let's kindly avoid Facebook-style nyah-nyah's here - not interesting - and just stick to the posted topic, which is a request to find suitable legal advisors. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users groan at JDB for this post:
  #24  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:10
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
Basically, this is only a thing for Swiss and permanant residents, not foreigners.

Are you either?

Tom
The rules are for those that live here for 5 yrs or longer no mentioning of type of permit or such.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:12
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
Let's kindly avoid Facebook-style nyah-nyah's here - not interesting - and just stick to the posted topic, which is a request to find suitable legal advisors. Thanks.
A judge will look if the rules as set by the government have been broken or not if you want to fight the decision. Your other option is to force the government to change the rules.. well good luck with that..
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:38
JDB JDB is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 17 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
JDB has become a little unpopularJDB has become a little unpopular
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

> The rules are for those that live here for 5 yrs or longer
> no mentioning of type of permit or such.


That's a good example of a misperception.

It's a starting point, but not the whole story, nor what might be considered a "justified exception" as mentioned in the rules - eg, who has experience with successful justifications? I'm sure there's someone out there, and mere philosophies about this process aren't useful.


> A judge will look if the rules as set by the government have
> been broken or not if you want to fight the decision.


That's another misperception.

The "laws" involved here are not a criminal topic, and don't directly lead to a judge for challenge - at least, not in the simpler scenarios. A whole hierarchy of bureaucrats and processes come first. That's both a challenge and an opportunity.

While these discussions are perhaps helpful in the thought-process, relying only on such advice-snippets is either "dangerous" or self-defeating towards the goal.

So instead of focusing on "what IS", or "what MIGHT happen", a better approach is to consider what you (ie, me) really want, how to get there, and who can help. For example, "who can help" is an experienced legal advisor who is already familiar with the topic.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at JDB for this post:
  #27  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:48
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Rotkreuz
Posts: 29
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 11 Times in 8 Posts
bailout has no particular reputation at present
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Thx for the bold. This thread now feels like one of those idiotic inspirational/feel-good FB/instragram videos.

You seem awfully confident that there is "wiggle-room", which I don't immediately discount, but the split does not depend on whether or not it pertains to criminal or civil.

Realistically, your best bet would be to contact the private schools directly and see if they can put you in touch with anyone on this matter, since they would be incentivized to do so.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank bailout for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:58
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 13,352
Groaned at 106 Times in 95 Posts
Thanked 20,604 Times in 9,112 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
You seem awfully confident that there is "wiggle-room", which I don't immediately discount, but the split does not depend on whether or not it pertains to criminal or civil.
It is neither civil nor criminal but worse: It is administrative law.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 11.10.2019, 21:59
JDB JDB is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 11
Groaned at 17 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
JDB has become a little unpopularJDB has become a little unpopular
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Ask the schools? Been there, done that.

The schools do have some info, and while they have some diligence and (statistical) reporting obligations - which only now become apparent now this "5-year period" has elapsed from the original ruling - they also have a self-interest to encourage their expensive students. And they have no mandate (or interest) to enforce, reject, or investigate a candidate student who claims to be a legitimate applicant.

For more information about a particular case, the schools recommend finding competent legal advice. So... guess what I'm doing? And from my perspective, "competent" means experienced and familiar with the topic.

Even if you don't like the boldface.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at JDB for this post:
  #30  
Old 11.10.2019, 22:13
olygirl's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: d' Innerschwiiz
Posts: 7,810
Groaned at 420 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 18,438 Times in 5,701 Posts
olygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond reputeolygirl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

I've googled "Bildungsrecht" and "Anwalt" and came up with this legal practice. I think they'll be able to help you as they specialize in education.

https://www.ettlersuter.ch/#error
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank olygirl for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 11.10.2019, 22:50
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
> The rules are for those that live here for 5 yrs or longer
> no mentioning of type of permit or such.


That's a good example of a misperception.
That is as dumb as getting a fine for driving through red light and telling the police they just had a misperception of the rules and it is all o.k.

This info comes out of the official papers, so suck it up.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 11.10.2019, 23:01
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 11,592
Groaned at 93 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 20,288 Times in 8,973 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
Ask the schools? Been there, done that.

The schools do have some info, and while they have some diligence and (statistical) reporting obligations - which only now become apparent now this "5-year period" has elapsed from the original ruling - they also have a self-interest to encourage their expensive students. And they have no mandate (or interest) to enforce, reject, or investigate a candidate student who claims to be a legitimate applicant.
Why wouldn't they have an interest in a qualified candidate? It's more money for them in the long run. Or do you mean they don't have any interest in helping you fight since the child isn't yet their student so it sort of falls under the "not my problem" category?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 13.10.2019, 21:25
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,975
Groaned at 186 Times in 121 Posts
Thanked 8,697 Times in 2,909 Posts
Kittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond reputeKittster has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Hmm, there is another thing to factor in: you are not special. Neither am I by the way. The Swiss government has a strong interest in children growing up here and presumably staying here being fully integrated into Swiss society. Having your offspring go to expat bubble school kind of hinders that.

Regarding finding someone to deal with this based on experience: I used to share an office space and now work with lawyers, a lot of them specialised in immigration and issues relating to schooling. Never heard your particular case come up in the approximately three years that I was around them.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 13.10.2019, 23:26
araqyl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Zurich, West-side
Posts: 2,259
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 1,423 Times in 742 Posts
araqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Since the law only came into being in 2014, good luck finding anybody with experience challenging it ...

As I understand this law, it means parents have a choice: they can go with private/international schools, or send their kids to a school which has proven that it covers the Cantonal curriculum.
There are some private schools which cover this curriculum, and have been assessed as such. It's not about language (unless the school doesn't teach in German at all) as there are several private bilingual schools which operate quite happily within the cantonal requirements and therefore count as a "local" school.

Part of it is, as I understand it, about teacher qualifications - those private schools "outside" the Zurich regulations can employ anybody they want; schools who wish to be "within" the regulations need to have teachers with qualifications recognised by Canton Zurich (as well as matching the curriculum outcomes).

Quote:
View Post
Do you have a source for that? It sounds too good to be true, that a family could use taxpayer money to send children to a private school. There's a reason they're called private, not public schools.
At a private Montessori school my kids went to in Canton Zurich, there were some children over the years who had their fees paid for by their home Gemeinde. These children had specifically recognised and diagnosed learning differences, and the parents convinced the Gemeinde that it would be better (and cheaper) to pay for a private Montessori school that could cater for their needs rather than to restructure the local school or bring in appropriate experts to educate these children in the public schools. Since this school has also proven to the cantonal authorities that they cover the curriculum properly, the Gemeinde's happy.

It's just another way the Gemeinde ensures that all kids who live there receive an appropriate education.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank araqyl for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 14.10.2019, 01:14
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,352
Groaned at 604 Times in 438 Posts
Thanked 13,940 Times in 7,276 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
Why wouldn't they have an interest in a qualified candidate? It's more money for them in the long run. Or do you mean they don't have any interest in helping you fight since the child isn't yet their student so it sort of falls under the "not my problem" category?
Of course they're interested in OP's tuition payments. But a few private schools had gone to court to keep the current law from being introduced. When they lost on the Cantonal level they decided to accept the verdict.

Cue OP.
Apparently the school he contacted can't be bothered to recommend a lawyer or three, not even those the litigating schools had worked with. If that doesn't tell OP something, nothing will.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 14.10.2019, 01:22
DUTCH's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wollerau
Posts: 417
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 690 Times in 255 Posts
DUTCH has a reputation beyond reputeDUTCH has a reputation beyond reputeDUTCH has a reputation beyond reputeDUTCH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
... If that doesn't tell OP something, nothing will.
How dare you, Sir?
It is but only a small matter of finding the right lawyer and all will be set right.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank DUTCH for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 14.10.2019, 19:47
araqyl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Zurich, West-side
Posts: 2,259
Groaned at 10 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 1,423 Times in 742 Posts
araqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond reputearaqyl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Legal advisor needed: private school in Kanton Zurich

Quote:
View Post
I'd be interested to know to what extent a private school is obliged to accept a child. I'd imagine that they are more interested in determining whether the child and parents are a good fit for the school.
afaik a private school has no obligation to accept any student applying for a place, any more than an employer is obliged to accept any job applicant, regardless of whether this student's parents are applying or the Gemeinde is behind it. Obviously it would be good diplomacy to accept a student supported by the Gemeinde, but there might be circumstances where this student would be too much of a burden for the school.

If the school does offer a place, and this is accepted, then any further discussion would obviously be covered by the contract between the school and the parent(s) (probation/trial period, notice periods for cancelling the contract, and so on).
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank araqyl for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
kanton zurich, legal, school




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Private German teacher needed in Zurich firyana Jobs offered 0 16.02.2017 18:03
Private Schools in Zurich following Swiss (Kanton Zurich) curriculum Expat4 Education 0 30.03.2015 12:15
Tax advisor for Kanton Zurich OrthoEng Finance/banking/taxation 1 17.12.2012 09:22
Needed a private teacher in German (ZURICH) vlad_island Language corner 0 25.06.2008 21:41
Accounting, Tax and Legal Advisor needed Buddy Business & entrepreneur 2 30.03.2007 23:16


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0