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Old 12.12.2019, 16:05
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[Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

Hello,

My wife and I got married this summer (in August). I am Swiss and she is Chinese. She has been living in Switzerland for ~2 years on a student permit, which was due to due to expire at the end of September (she is still a student, but the permit needs to be renewed every year).

Immediately after our wedding, we submitted all the required paperwork to the OCPM, under the "Family reunification" permit. We got married in Switzerland and already live together in Geneva, so we expected this would be a formality. After about a week, we received an email confirming the reception of the request.

As the date of the expiration of her student permit was approaching, we tried contacting the OCPM for an update on the status, but they would not answer any of our calls or emails. We did not even receive a confirmation that they had all the required documents, so we don't know if it will be rejected on "technical grounds". Her old permit expired, so she is now "without papers". This is a problem administratively, but also for traveling, as we are afraid to travel outside of Switzerland (in particular, outside of Europe) as we don't know if she will be allowed to go back to Switzerland.
We finally went to the OCPM, and were told that they could not give us any estimate of when the permit would be processed. They said it could be January, February, March, or later, no way to know.

So we are asking ourselves two questions:
- Is she allowed to take a job while her permit is being processed? She is applying to several positions, and the companies want her to start immediately. If she is not able to, she would most likely lose the job offer. In addition, this would represent a lot of income loss for us for every month she is unemployed, as she finishes her studies next month.
- If we wait until March, this will have been a 7 months wait for her permit to be processed. Is this normal for Geneva? She has friends in Zurich whose permits were processed in 1-2 weeks after their wedding. Should we start putting more pressure on the OCPM through a formal letter from a lawyer? From what point in time should we start to worry about it?

Many thanks in advance for your advices - this topic is increasingly keeping us awake at night, and knowing whether this situation is normal or not would make us feel much better.
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Old 12.12.2019, 16:45
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

No, she cannot work until the permit has been approved. If she does, then she's working illegally. Until she gets a family reunification permit any employer would have to go through the non-EU hiring criteria to be able to hire her.
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Old 12.12.2019, 16:55
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

Then should we hire a lawyer at some point? We can't wait indefinitely without any income... If we wait another 2 months, we will likely keep receiving the same reply from OCPM. Is there any duration beyond which it becomes a denial of justice if the OCPM does not make any decision on the case?

Also, I found several other threads on this forum that seem to suggest that it is generally possible to start working as long as the authorities are informed (e.g., https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ing-times.html). Is there a clear jurisprudence on this?
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Old 12.12.2019, 17:49
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

I agree with Medea. Your wife should definitely not try to work until she has a permit permitting her to do so. If she does find an employer who is prepared to employ her without the proper procedures, that in itself proves that the employer is dodgy, and therefore that working situation is unlikely to be good for your wife. Moreover, if the fact that she has been working illegally ever comes out in her and your application, that will definitely count against her, for having broken the Swiss law.

For you to apply for a permit for her to live with you, you will have to demonstrate that you have enough money to support you both. Therefore, although a second salary is always nice to have, the Swiss government's position is that you are not, in fact, getting into any financial difficulties because your wife is not yet earning her own money.

I agree: your wife should not cross the border out of Switzerland, for the reasons you have rightly mentioned, unless told to do so by the Swiss authorities.

As to your asking for advice, and having sleepless nights, my advice is to try to mentally re-frame this phase of waiting.

If at all possible, I suggest that your wife (with your support) use the time while she is living with you and you are supporting her, but she doesn't have to go in to a job, to learn the local language, learn the local language, learn the local language. In your case, in Geneva, she should learn French, learn French, learn French. For at least 4 to 6 hours a day, with the diliegence and commitment as if to a job.

A command of the local language can be a huge factor which tips the balance in getting a job offer at all, and then to maintaining it happily. Certainly it can make just about every aspect of everyday life better. This is a good time (free of the commitment to an employer) for your wife to make this investment in her/your(pl.) future.

If she already has an excellent command of French, that's great. In that case, I'd like to encourage her to put her time to use to improve all the other skills around living and working in Switzerland, no matter her working field. Brush up on Swiss etiquette, on Word and Excel, master any aspect of local life.

Another option is to decide to embark on a specific free-time project she's always wanted to do, like training for a marathon, or building a bookshelf, etc. so that she has a focus and later, when all the papers are sorted out, she can look back and know that that's what she did with the time.

I recommend this not only because a strong command of French is a good idea, as is self-nurturing, but also because I hope that then the time will no longer feel wasted and empty, but as a good, strong phase in your new life together.
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Old 12.12.2019, 18:57
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

She is not ‘without papers’. She is legally allowed to stay while her permit is being processed. If she needs to leave Switzerland, however, she will need an authorization document and maybe even a visa extension (not sure about that).
You’ll have to go back to the OCP to get that.

Those waiting times are absolutely ridiculous. But it seems Geneva has been backed up for a while now.
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Old 12.12.2019, 19:23
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

I see that you tried to reach the immigration authorities by phonecall and by mail. When you went there in person they said it could be any time in the first few months of 2020.

In that case, unless you have specifically been told to use a given e-mail, I would suggest that you do not use mail at all again. Nor phonecalls.

Most places go a little wobbly over December and January, since many staff take some leave then because of Christmas and New Year. Find out whether Geneva schools have winter holidays in February. Wait till they are over, too. If you haven't heard by then, write a letter on paper, in an envelope, with a copy of the last letter you wrote them, and the last letter they wrote you. Do not ask them by when it'll be processed, since you already have the answer that they can't say. Instead, ask them to please inform you whether any further documents are required from you, or from your wife.

In any event, be ready to submit your latest tax details. As soon as you can after 31st December 2019, collect all the necessary documents to fill in your tax return asap, so that you'll have it ready as soon as they ask for proof of your ongoing ability to support your wife financially.
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Old 12.12.2019, 19:29
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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She is not ‘without papers’. She is legally allowed to stay while her permit is being processed.
I knew someone who was in a similar gap, having a valid passport of her home country, but an expired Swiss visa, and no currently valid permit. That was scary. A lawyer advised her that, while her application was being processed, she should always keep her official ID on her, together with a copy of the last letter from the immigration authorities (with reference number) that said: "We are processing your application."

Some weeks later, she was stopped on the street by the Police, and asked to prove that she was in Switzerland legally. She showed the Police officers her passport and that letter, and they were satisfied and even commended her for carrying the letter with her, and wished her good luck and may her permit arrive soon.
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Old 13.12.2019, 10:36
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

As a student did she even have on her permis “avec activité” if not i wouldn’t even consider working for money. If she did before at least you could argue she always had the right.

Go to the OCP directly. You called and emailed, it doesn’t work in Geneva. Either talk to a live person or by snail mail recommandé
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Old 13.12.2019, 11:20
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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So we are asking ourselves two questions:
- Is she allowed to take a job while her permit is being processed? She is applying to several positions, and the companies want her to start immediately. If she is not able to, she would most likely lose the job offer. In addition, this would represent a lot of income loss for us for every month she is unemployed, as she finishes her studies next month.
Truth is that she started to apply for jobs while not being allowed to work and no certainty on when she would be allowed, if they want her this bad at this moment than finding a job in some months should also not be a problem. The loss of income sucks, but in no way can be a disaster since clearly you can support both of you (else your application is a waste of time)
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- If we wait until March, this will have been a 7 months wait for her permit to be processed. Is this normal for Geneva? She has friends in Zurich whose permits were processed in 1-2 weeks after their wedding. Should we start putting more pressure on the OCPM through a formal letter from a lawyer? From what point in time should we start to worry about it?
If your goal is to waste money and to make the people who have to decide dislike you than yes have a lawyer sending letters would be a great idea. It is very normal that these things take months, and you should not start worrying before the summer.
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Old 13.12.2019, 17:38
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

Thank you very much for your detailed replies!

I am a bit surprised to read that she would not be allowed to work, as this seems to contradict what I read on several other threads of this forum, where people said that as long as the authorities were notified, she would be allowed to take employment in the meantime. Also, so far the majority of the recruiters she spoke to (from very large Swiss companies with thousands of employees) hinted that it would probably not be a problem, but of course without taking an official stance. Thus, I wonder if there is an "official" rule and an unofficial one that most companies follow. Are you aware of any jurisprudence that clearly establishes this, or is it a legal grey area?

Of course, I can support her financially. But 6 months without a job, assuming for example 7000 CHF salary per month, that's a cost of 35'000 CHF, which is not insignificant (and also a big tax loss for the state of Geneva, which could really use it to improve public services like the OCPM...). In addition, once she receives the permit, she would then need a few months to find a job. And this is assuming that they don't come back to us, telling us that a document is missing. At this point, we are almost considering moving to Zurich given that they seem to only take a few weeks to approve the permit, and since many of the jobs she is applying to are anyway in the German speaking area...

Anyways, it seems like there isn't much we can do other than wait. But it is really a shame for Geneva, that brands itself as "international", to have an organization such as the OCPM. It is not surprising that, with policies like this one, Geneva regularly ranks as one of the worst cities for expats.
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:08
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

Cool it with the hate to Geneva.

First of all taxes from a 7’000 CHF salary are peanuts to Geneva and anywhere else.

Secondly, OCPM do not process applications based on potential tax income but on a FIFO basis. They are likely swamped with permit requests and yours will be processed as soon as the time comes.

Quick tip I wouldn’t push OCPM or openly criticise them unless you want your application to be placed at the bottom of the pile.
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:11
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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... is it a legal grey area?
No. As far as I know, it is completely black-and-white: no permit, no right to work legally.

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I am a bit surprised to read that she would not be allowed to work, as this seems to contradict what I read on several other threads of this forum, where people said that as long as the authorities were notified, she would be allowed to take employment in the meantime
I'm not aware of such cases. Could you perhaps link to what you've read, please? Then maybe someone on the forum can see whether parts of those cases might be relevant to help along your wife's case. Maybe you are seeing something that I'm overlooking.

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Of course, I can support her financially. But 6 months without a job, assuming for example 7000 CHF salary per month, that's a cost of 35'000 CHF, which is not insignificant (and also a big tax loss for the state of Geneva, which could really use it to improve public services like the OCPM...). In addition, once she receives the permit, she would then need a few months to find a job. And this is assuming that they don't come back to us, telling us that a document is missing.
I'm not sure if this is any comfort, but the immigration authorities are looking at completely different numbers.

If they approve a permit foolishly, in other words if they let someone in who then turns out not have enough money and ends up needing support from the Social Security, then they will have incurred costs for the some or other leve of the Swiss government. If, on the other hand, they are meticulous and filter out those potential difficult cases, and issue permits only to those whose cases they have fully checked, they diminish the risk of such Social Security costs.

When they set such potential expenditure against the income from the tax on your wife's earnings, her contribution pales into relative insignificance.

For you and your wife, of course, this amount of loss of potential earnings stings, and I can understand that you're feeling frustrated. I think I would be, too, were I in her (and your) position.

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Anyways, it seems like there isn't much we can do other than wait. But it is really a shame for Geneva, that brands itself as "international", to have an organization such as the OCPM. It is not surprising that, with policies like this one, Geneva regularly ranks as one of the worst cities for expats.
Yes, wait. And then send a polite letter on paper, in an envelope, to enquire whether any documents are missing.
,
The thing is, the immigration authorities are not here to look out for the well-being of expats. From their perspective, their job is to figure out how to keep the gate mostly closed but then to open it to people whose skills are needed here, to people who have a legal right to work here (namely EU citizens) and to others (non-EU) only after scrutiny, and within all the various categories of immigrants, as far as possible only to people unlikely to ever cost the Swiss government anything.

I'm not trying to say that this is wrong or right, just that that is their legally defined scope of responsibility. It is certainly frustrating for you, though, that it takes so long.

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At this point, we are almost considering moving to Zurich given that they seem to only take a few weeks to approve the permit, and since many of the jobs she is applying to are anyway in the German speaking area...
Anecdotally, I'm not so sure of the "only a few weeks" to approve a permit for a non-EU family reunification, in Zurich.

However, if you do decide to move from Geneva to Zurich, I expect that will involve resetting your clock and starting the whole process at zero. In any event, I'd urge you not to consider a move, at all, unless you are 100% certain, in black-and-white on paper, that you yourself (not she) have
  • either your own source of wealth and income that is canton-independent,
  • or a job in Zurich that pays sufficiently well to support you both, in which you have already completed the probationary period.

I'm sorry for the annoyance while you wait, and hope that your wife can fill her time learning French and, since you're considering a move to Zurich, also German. Just about everything in her life will become easier if she does this, and then the waiting time will not be wasted. Being busy doing something to improve one's employability and integration can turn a long waiting time into a useful respite, at least to some extent.
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:14
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

That other topic is not relevant to you since that is about a spouse who entered Switzerland under family-reunification, your partner entered Switzerland as a non EU under a student visa. So you cannot compare those cases since they are different.

The rule is incredible simple: NON-eu is not allowed to work unless specifically allowed.

As for moving to Zürich, you have zero guarantee that it would go faster here, heck it might even make it last longer than it would in Geneva, so skip that idea since it might bring you all except what you are looking for.

Yes you can travel, during the application she can as for rights of entry and travel consider her expired visa as still being valid.

And stop making such drama about missed income (which does not equal costs) you earn enough to support the family, you have a house and food in the fridge, you can travel and while you work she can see some of the country, get language certificates/courses, learn to ski whatever just spend the time more wisely than sitting on the couch complaining about what you are not allowed. You are Swiss, so you above many of us should have known upfront that paperwork can take time here.
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:19
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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Yes you can travel, during the application she can as for rights of entry and travel consider her expired visa as still being valid.
Edwin, you write this as if you really know it for sure, so I suppose you do. I had not heard such a thing, and in the other case I mentioned, in post number 7 above, that non-EU person was specifically counselled against leaving Switzerland until her permit had arrived, for fear of not being allowed back in. Could you perhaps provide a link to clarify, please?
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:32
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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Edwin, you write this as if you really know it for sure, so I suppose you do. I had not heard such a thing, and in the other case I mentioned, in post number 7 above, that non-EU person was specifically counselled against leaving Switzerland until her permit had arrived, for fear of not being allowed back in. Could you perhaps provide a link to clarify, please?
As for post 7, what would be the logic to reside here legally but not to be allowed to re-enter during that same period?
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:39
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

I understand that lost income is not how the OCPM makes decisions. My point was just that reviewing a permit request takes at most a few hours of work, and that the state of Geneva would be much better off if they were investing into hiring more OCPM employees, as those would generate a lot of tax money just from the speedier process. I am not saying they should change the criteria for handing those permits, but just that the state loses a lot of money unnecessarily. My 35'000 is just an illustration - in the aggregate, having hundreds of people at any given point unable to work just because of poor allocation of state resources is damaging to the economy.
It is not the goal of the OCPM to make people happy, but it is certainly (or should be) the goal of the state, which decides of the funding of the OCPM.

Anyway, this is a political discussion. I just wanted to mention it because I think this is a lose-lose situation, where nobody is benefitting, and I had not appreciated the magnitude of the problem until going through it with my wife. As Swiss, I think most of us are not aware of the reality of the admin process foreigners have to go through, so I think we should raise awareness of those issues.

You are right that it would not make sense to move to Zurich at this stage, since we are already several months into the process. But when other expats ask me which city they should prioritize to move to Switzerland, it is now an element of information that I give them. Whether it intends to or not, Geneva sends a message through the OCPM.

But I do appreciate and will follow your advices!
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:43
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

P.S: On this post, (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ing-times.html) someone mentioned the following:


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In practise nobody cares. You will get it purely by virtue of having an EU spouse, everyone knows you will get it, so if your employer lets you start working and pays your salary it's fine.

My wife was in much the same situation; her employer was fine with her starting work 1-2 weeks before the actual permit arrived. And they were a law firm.
This is what made me think that it was possible to start without having received the actual document
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:44
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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P.S: On this post, (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ing-times.html) someone mentioned the following:




This is what made me think that it was possible to start without having received the actual document
Probably from th eu?
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:49
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

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Probably from th eu?
The thread was about non-EU cases, so normally not. But it is possible the author had not noticed it
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Old 13.12.2019, 18:52
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Re: [Geneva] Taking employment while waiting for family reunification permit

We were advised to get a "return visa" from the OCPM. However, my wife had to queue over 3 hours at the OCPM to get one, and the visa is only valid 3 months. So it looks like taking a trip that lasts more than 3 months is not possible, unless we return to Geneva to queue for a new return visa.
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