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Old 30.12.2019, 12:37
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Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Hi,

We are holding L permit which is expiring in March 2020. My husband's organisation has applied for B Permit, his application has been rejected and the authority has asked to provide following information to re-appeal in the federal court. A third party legal firm is involved in filling the permit, it is surprising that they did not attach the requisite documents (pointed by us) in first application and now they are asking my husband to gather the information for the re-appeal. I need your help to help we with requisite
- why is he not replaceable by another employee? What are his special skills/knowledge that others do not have or could not lean within a few months? - This justification can be provided
- what is the impact for the Swiss economy if his assignment is not extended? - Can you help me to put up those points solid so that it make sense to the authority and boost up the chance during re-appealment.

Thanks,
Riya
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Old 30.12.2019, 12:44
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

I assume you are Non-EU? Surely your employer has to prove all this, not you!?
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Old 30.12.2019, 13:16
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Thanks.

Yes, I am non-EU and my employer asked me to provide this info. First point, I am aware and given but about 2nd point, need some help which I can send to my employer to review and share with authority...
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Old 30.12.2019, 14:31
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Are you speaking of both your permit and your husband's? Do you each have to provide such information, through your respective employers?
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Old 30.12.2019, 14:57
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Thanks.

I am talking about my husband's permit. My husband has to provide such information to his employers. Do you have any template or suggestion?
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Old 30.12.2019, 15:01
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Ask his employer for the wording they initially applied with for his permit.
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Old 30.12.2019, 15:15
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Thanks.

I am talking about my husband's permit. My husband has to provide such information to his employers. Do you have any template or suggestion?
I am confused really, the justification part and reason to retain/hire an employee has to be given by employer to authorities.
Unless the employer is acting really smart and in case of any further rejection would only blame your husband for not providing a convincing reason
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Old 30.12.2019, 17:03
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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- what is the impact for the Swiss economy if his assignment is not extended? - Can you help me to put up those points solid so that it make sense to the authority and boost up the chance during re-appealment.

Thanks,
Riya
Honestly if the authorities have already rejected the application, the answer is: none. If he had special skills valuable to the economy they'd have accepted him, if he was key player in his employer's business they would not have a problem answer the question...

I think the legal guys need to do their job - come up with an appropriate piece of waffle...
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Old 30.12.2019, 23:14
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

He is a certified professional of a niche technology. I am also surprised with the reaction of the legal firm and the worst part his manager (on leave till 6th Jan) is new who doesn't want to take too much burden. The legal team sits in Zurich and my project office is in Geneva. All the letters and justifications were submitted in English and within two weeks the Geneva authority rejected the application asked to submit the revise justification specifically written in French to the federal court in 30days proving the two points (I mentioned before).

If any one has the format of the justification letter (In English/French) or content or any link which will help to make the case strong, please share it with me. It will be useful for him.

(May be after the holidays, they will act better. But we are worried as all the documents need to be submitted by 12th Jan.)
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Old 31.12.2019, 00:14
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

I'm really trying to understand, but I'm finding it very confusing. Since this application is all about your husband's work and permit, what is the connection to your "project office in Geneva", and your employer asking you for this information? From what you write, it seems to me that in one way or another, your work and applications are connected to your husband's work and applications... and yet you said earlier that the query is about his only.

Oh, well, the reason for my confusion doesn't matter at all, as long as the application is made clearly. Unless you and your husband are working on the same projects, your and his applications are likely to be treated separately, each on their merit.

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Honestly if the authorities have already rejected the application, the answer is: none. If he had special skills valuable to the economy they'd have accepted him...
...as long as they were actually provided with the full information upon which to base their decision.

Here are some suggestions of how to go about gathering and structuring the information, as an outline for the lawyers to transform into a solid application.

Step one:
Never send anything to any official Swiss government department, in a non-Swiss language.
  • If you are submitting in Zurich, all the documents should be originally in German, or properly translated into German.
  • If you are submitting in Geneva, all the documents should be originally in French, or properly translated into French.
This seems to me to be basic courtesy towards the local government officials, and therefore tactically wise, especially as it is you/your husband who wants something from them.
Use of the local language may even be a formal requirement for the application to be processed, at all.

Step two:
Set out what, exactly, about your husband's work, is "niche". This should include
  • his formal qualifications
  • any further training courses attended
  • relevant publications
  • prizes or awards won
  • fellowships
  • his years of working experience, espeically including some description of the content of his [similar] work before he was employed in this position
  • any ways in which this overall set can be demonstrated to be rare.

Step three:
Tie together his expertise with this particular project/position:
  • describe this specific position or project in detail, and
  • demonstrate how it needs needs exactly this particular set of formal studies, experience, specialised knoweldge and skill-set that this man brings.

Step four:
Set out what the success of this project means to the company and, thereby, to the Swiss economy, for example:
  • successful earnings and taxes
  • expansion into new areas / entrance into a new market in Switzerland and/or including international trade
  • boosting of existing work / increased turnover
  • building new branches of the company and thereby new employment opportunities for others
  • retaining parts of the company in Switzerland that would, without this success, have to be moved to another country, or closed down completely
  • prestigious international collaboration with centres of excellence / leading universities, furthering scientific development.

Step five:
Set out in what way no-one else can reasonably fill this position, for example how:
  • others persons already in the company
  • others who are known to the company, or
  • who have been considered for the post from within Switzerland or the EU
have not brought the full range and depth of knowledge needed for this post.

Step six:
Set out what is to be feared if the employment of this man is discontinued, for example:
  • major project delays while an alternative suitable candidate (unlikely to be found) is sought
  • restructuring the project to divide it amongst lesser qualified persons
  • diminishing the scope of the project, so as to achieve far smaller overall goals
  • not meeting deadlines and failing other academics, business partners, customers,
  • causing a cascade of other projects not to be able to be fulfilled, or not fulfilled punctually and within budget
  • closing of a department
  • loss of the mandate for this project, and increasing unemployment in Switzerland by n skilled and m semi- or un-skilled jobs with q months/years.

Having set all of the above out: I am not a lawyer. I just know that here the basic format for applications and objections is to
  • set out the truth of the facts as they stand, in detail, then
  • to explain why the thing you're applying for is advantageous for Switzerland, then
  • to explain what would go wrong for whom in Switzerland, and the extent of the negative consequences, were the application to be denied.

Hopefully, your legal advisors will then be able to polish such a draft from you / your husband, so as to pick out and emphasise the parts which, according to Swiss law and judgments are deemed to be relevant to such an application.
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  #11  
Old 31.12.2019, 10:36
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Thanks doropfiz This is really very helpful and makes sense. I am really grateful to you. You are absolutely right regarding my work permit which is connected to my husband's application as of now (valid till March 2020). I work for a small NGO - 50%, my contract is till Dec 2020. My office closed till 6th Jan, I will speak to them if they could offer me a CDL permit.
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Old 01.01.2020, 19:01
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

I've thought of another line of argument, should all of the above not suffice to get the permit(s). And that is the so-called "Härtefall", literally "hardship case".

Arguments in this direction do not assert rights, but are an appeal for a positive decision based on compassion. They are, by nature, secondary to the primary application as outlined above. They can include a variety of factors, or a combination of factors, as applying to the permit applicant him/herself, or to a direct family member.

Examples:
  • stateless (= having no other citizenship)
  • a citizen of a country in which it would be difficult for the applicant or family member to live, e.g. a country of which the person/people cannot speak, read, or write that local language at all, or in which certain types of work or roles are not permitted
  • a citizen of a country to which it would be dangerous to return, e.g. because there is currently a war there, or because the laws of that country discriminate against the applicant/family members on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or similar
  • disabled, such that the disabilities are being adequately addresses in Switzerland and the persons integrated into school or work, whereas this can be shown to be unlikely or impossible in another country, or at least that moving would be very disruptive and possibly cause set-backs
  • in the process of significant medical treatment which should be continued by the same specialists, here, and not interrupted to go into a different situation where treatment would have to be sought, possible could not be had, or not at a price that could be paid
  • an entire family support system already living here, and this can be shown to be relevant especially in the case of disability or illness of the kind that needs the help of such a family system
  • for children whose parents do not live together, the need to have access to both parents.

By the same structure as a set out above, the argument needs to be built by showing why and how, exactly, keeping the situation as it is (= continuing the permits for all concerned) will lead to an overall better situation, and what is to be feared if the person has to leave the country.

For example, it is not enough to say: "She gets on well with her doctor, and she doesn't trust people easily". Instead, show that this doctor, here, is a specialist in this condition, and that progress is being made (produce doctor's reports over intervalls, to show this) but that in the country of origin the waiting times to see such a specialist are currently approximately n months (produce evidence of this), which would lead to an interruption, and that break would lead to a significant deterioration (produce Swiss doctor's report to say so).

Obviously, a permit granted on one's own true merit is more likely to be renewed later, assuming the merit and the value to Switzerland is ongoing, whereas any permit granted on the grounds of hardship is likely to be subject to further scrutiny, to determine whether, at some later point, the hardship has been sufficiently overcome to enable the Swiss government to legitimately terminate the permit that was previously issued based on those compassionate grounds.
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Old 08.01.2020, 23:21
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Any possible feedbak after handing in the letter?
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Old 12.01.2020, 11:28
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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I've thought of another line of argument, should all of the above not suffice to get the permit(s). And that is the so-called "Härtefall", literally "hardship case".

Arguments in this direction do not assert rights, but are an appeal for a positive decision based on compassion. They are, by nature, secondary to the primary application as outlined above. They can include a variety of factors, or a combination of factors, as applying to the permit applicant him/herself, or to a direct family member.
Thanks @doropfiz for your help, we were able to put up some good points using your inputs. Just to let you know that these new arguments are not applicable to us. My husband's legal team will submit the application on next week, I will keep you all posted.

In parallel, I checked with my employer and wanted to ask something related to my work permit.

First, let me give you a background of my employment. I am working for an NGO at 50%. My contract is till Jan 2021 and when my employer applied for my permit in sept, the authority issued me the same dependent permit with authorisation to work till 1st week - March 2020 (linked to my husband's permit).

Last Friday, we checked with Swiss authority my organisation cannot issue CDL because we are registered as NGO not International Organisation (IO). My employer is ready to grant me 100% starting from March-2020 to Jan-2021 via revise contract, it might extend further subject to grants availability.

As we are a small organisation, my director asked me to find out the process and do all the needful. Being a non-EU/ Swiss, I am unaware of the process and do not know anyone to consult. As my organisation is cannot issue a CDL, can you tell me how to proceed, which documents /criteria / form should we refer at Geneva Canton and which permit I will be issued.
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Old 12.01.2020, 11:29
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Any possible feedbak after handing in the letter?
Will surely update you after submission.
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Old 27.01.2020, 21:39
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

Hi,

Could you let me know after how many years of L permit stay is your husband trying to convert to B permit? As per my knowledge, it is easier for conversion, if you have stayed for a couple of years in an L permit.
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Old 28.01.2020, 11:55
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Hi,

Could you let me know after how many years of L permit stay is your husband trying to convert to B permit? As per my knowledge, it is easier for conversion, if you have stayed for a couple of years in an L permit.
Not true. for NON EUs always stay on a L permit for 2 years before asking for a B permit and it does not matter how long the non EU stayed on L. An L to B conversion is essentially the issuance of a new permit from the B permit quota and has nothing to do with years spent on L.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 28.01.2020, 12:12
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Not true. for NON EUs always stay on a L permit for 2 years before asking for a B permit and it does not matter how long the non EU stayed on L. An L to B conversion is essentially the issuance of a new permit from the B permit quota and has nothing to do with years spent on L.


cheers
happycreature

This. And I am surprised that the spouse of a Non-EU was able to get a work permission as well - often for Non-EU L the dependent spouse is not permitted to work. You need your own special work permit.



basically, your L permit was issued on arrival as a dependent spouse to your husband, if he is also Non-EU - the L permit is normally renewed for 2 years then the employer must renew it - in the same way that they recruited him and got the work permit, they must go through the process to show that they cannot find anyone in Switzerland or the EU to do the job. It's a new application process. the employer should be taking the lead on this - otherwise they are just messing you around.



This is down to your husband's employer. They need to sort it out.


Good Luck!
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Old 07.02.2020, 23:45
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Hi,

Could you let me know after how many years of L permit stay is your husband trying to convert to B permit? As per my knowledge, it is easier for conversion, if you have stayed for a couple of years in an L permit.
We are staying here with L permit since almost two year and before the expiry, my husband's company applied for his B permit. It is never easy to get your permit converted to B. For Non-Eu, if you have a long term/permanent contract and enough salary (for you and your family to sustain), it is easier to get a B permit.
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Old 07.02.2020, 23:48
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Re: Swiss L to B permit Conversion

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Will surely update you after submission.
My husband's company has withdrawn the case as his organisation was not confident enough and wasted a lot of time As we are not sure, his organisation reported that if they lose the case, it will impact for his future job.
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