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  #41  
Old 20.01.2021, 15:36
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Don't see it as TV, compare it to your boring language textbook. Try also the evening news. Maybe we got better local TV but I love watching a bit from VD then Valais, a bit from Jura, Neuch, GE..It's great, the commercials are cute, local food, wine, etc. 5min a day and it will grow on you. Then at work it's easy to say in Swiss dialect "Hey, I saw this ..explain..why", people like to share. Otherwise it is not easy to relate to a foreigner who still consumes entertainment and media exclusively from abroad, tbh. And I don't say this as a Czech, people don't know where it is to really relate, anyway.

Otherwise people are quite talkative..are tired of being cooped in, seeing nobody.
I find the adverts funny - often they seem to be competing to use the strongest possible dialect to demonstrate how local they are. Sometimes the same happens in the UK - I remember seeing a McDonalds advert in a strong west-coast Scottish accent, came across as just weird.
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  #42  
Old 20.01.2021, 15:40
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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"After five years of residence. Foreign nationals applying for a C permit (which grants permanent residence) after they have resided in Switzerland for five years are required to prove that they speak the official language in their canton at level B1 and have written skills at level A1 of CEFR.

After 10 years of residence. Foreign nationals applying for a C permit after 10 years of residence in Switzerland must demonstrate written skills at level A1 and oral skills at level A2 of the CEFR in the official language spoken in their canton.

Naturalisation. Foreign nationals applying for Swiss citizenship after a period of stay of 10 years (regular process) or five years (simplified process for spouses of Swiss nationals) must demonstrate written skills at level A2 and oral skills at level B1 of the CEFR in the official language spoken in their canton."

Strange that it decreases for 10 years compared to 5 years and then increases again for naturalization.
Maybe the 10 year values match what was expected when the older C permits were issued, and they don't want to introduce a new requirement which isn't really in the spirit of "permanent residence".
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  #43  
Old 20.01.2021, 15:41
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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It's always the same in the multinational companies. Those planning to stick around (married locally or just loving it in their new host place) learn the local language, have local buddies, kids in local schools... It is not surprising that the host place wants to award their permits to those who show that their priority is to stay..Good investment.
.
Marriage is a huge motivator as far as I noticed. Those who come single and relatively young usually stick around.
(I mean in EE)
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  #44  
Old 20.01.2021, 15:53
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An EU/EFTA C permit can however be downgraded to an EU/EFTA B permit based only on lack of language skills (Swiss law).
I'm pretty sure that's not true. There was a thread about this within the last few months and there are only a few reasons why a C permit may not be renewed, which do not include any language criteria. I'll try and dig it out, i#or maybe someone else can remember where it was?

I can state with some certainty that there is no requirement for a language test for a C permit renewal, given that ours were renewed in October.

Also, there is no such thing as an "EU/EFTA C permit". The criteria for first getting it vary depending on where you're from, but once you've got one there is no distinction.

[Edit: successive posts merged]

Here we go: https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ml#post3242035

Indeed, it was you (qwertz) who made that last post there. Note that the only mention of integration requirements for downgrading a B to a C is if you fail to continue to meet criteria on which it was first issued. So if you didn't need a language test in the first place they can't downgrade you based on that in the future either.

The point about insufficient language requirement appears to contradict this, it's true, but as this is the guidance document to which you were referring there, and the actual law was quoted further up in the thread, I think that's an error.

Last edited by Guest; 20.01.2021 at 16:08.
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  #45  
Old 20.01.2021, 17:25
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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I'm pretty sure that's not true. There was a thread about this within the last few months and there are only a few reasons why a C permit may not be renewed, which do not include any language criteria. I'll try and dig it out, i#or maybe someone else can remember where it was?

I can state with some certainty that there is no requirement for a language test for a C permit renewal, given that ours were renewed in October.

Also, there is no such thing as an "EU/EFTA C permit". The criteria for first getting it vary depending on where you're from, but once you've got one there is no distinction.

[Edit: successive posts merged]

Here we go: https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ml#post3242035

Indeed, it was you (qwertz) who made that last post there. Note that the only mention of integration requirements for downgrading a B to a C is if you fail to continue to meet criteria on which it was first issued. So if you didn't need a language test in the first place they can't downgrade you based on that in the future either.

The point about insufficient language requirement appears to contradict this, it's true, but as this is the guidance document to which you were referring there, and the actual law was quoted further up in the thread, I think that's an error.
Not entirely true. A Non-EU C Permit is linked to the Canton of residence, while EU C Permit enjoys geographical mobility - same as EU B.

Simply said a Non EU cannot simply switch Cantons - a permission is needed even if it's just a formality with a C Permit. EU B or C never needs such a permission
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  #46  
Old 20.01.2021, 17:49
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Not entirely true. A Non-EU C Permit is linked to the Canton of residence
Got a link to that?

Tom
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  #47  
Old 20.01.2021, 17:54
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Got a link to that?
I doubt it, as I don't think that is the case either.
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  #48  
Old 20.01.2021, 19:02
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Not entirely true. A Non-EU C Permit is linked to the Canton of residence, while EU C Permit enjoys geographical mobility - same as EU B.
Technically true, it is linked to the canton of residence, but a change of canton is very easily possible and a mere formality. It can only be denied in the rare case when they could also do a downgraded to B anyway. Otherwise it must be granted, by law.
(Art. 37 FNIA)

In this respect there is not much difference between a EU persons which has free movement due the FMOP agreement, and a non-EU person which has free movement due to permit C. The German term "Niederlassungsbewilligung" exactly means that: The right to settle (anywhere) in Switzerland.
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  #49  
Old 20.01.2021, 20:00
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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I'm pretty sure that's not true. There was a thread about this within the last few months and there are only a few reasons why a C permit may not be renewed, which do not include any language criteria. I'll try and dig it out, i#or maybe someone else can remember where it was?

I can state with some certainty that there is no requirement for a language test for a C permit renewal, given that ours were renewed in October.
I will quote my post again (that was taken from the FNIA SEM guidance) and highlight the part in bold that you are missing:

C permit can be downgraded at anytime to a B if the conditions of integration according to art. 58a FNIA are not fulfilled (further details under 8.3.3 and examples in 8.3.3.3 of SEM guidance).

Examples include:
  • Insufficient participation in working life, debt, unemployment (by one's own fault) and that issuing a warning would not change the situation to the better
  • Absence of will of the partner benefitting from family regroupement to learn the language or acquire an education
  • Not fulfilling an integration convention contract to which issuing the C permit was tied to
  • Violation of constitutional values and/or insufficient language knowledge

Quote:
Note that the only mention of integration requirements for downgrading a B to a C is if you fail to continue to meet criteria on which it was first issued. So if you didn't need a language test in the first place they can't downgrade you based on that in the future either.
I disagree with your interpretation as the SEM guidance document on this clearly states insufficient language knowledge as a reason to downgrade a C permit to a B permit if a warning is not appropriate (bold above), I let you read the relevant point in the SEM guidance document.

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Also, there is no such thing as an "EU/EFTA C permit". The criteria for first getting it vary depending on where you're from, but once you've got one there is no distinction.
Yes there is, if you look on an EU/EFTA C permit, it says EU/EFTA for a reason (contrary to a third state C permit), I let you read:

Auch wenn EU/EFTA-Staatsangehörige eine Niederlassungsbewilligung EU/EFTA erhalten haben, gelten weiterhin diejenigen Bestimmungen des FZA, die ihnen eine bessere Rechtsstellung einräumen als die Niederlassungsbewilligung nach dem AIG (Ziff. II 1.3.3 und II 2.8.2). Ebenso verhält es sich beispielsweise hinsichtlich der Gründe für den Widerruf der Bewilligung und der Entfernungs- und Fernhaltemassnahmen.

A l'égard des ressortissants UE/AELE titulaires d'une autorisation d'établissement UE/AELE, les dispositions de l'ALCP, qui prévoient un statut juridique plus favorable que celui que leur confère l'autorisation d'établissement en vertu de la LEI, continuent d'être applicables (ch. II.1.3.3 et II.2.8.2). Il en est ainsi par exemple des motifs de révocation de l'autorisation et des mesures d'éloignements.

FMOP SEM directives page 25, first PDF from the below link:
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/fr/home...eiben/fza.html
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  #50  
Old 21.01.2021, 11:36
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

Have any of you non-EU C permit holders moved to a canton where the language is one you do not speak, and if so, did you encounter problems with your permit status?

Half-heartedly eyeing the Romandie, but my schoolgirl French from a lifetime ago is most definitely not up to snuff. Jeopardizing my C permit would be a deal breaker.

Many thanks.
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  #51  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:06
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

Qwertz, that is interesting and wonder what it actually means

''unemployment (by one's own fault)''

does that include anyone who decides to just quit their job - without even trying first to resolve any issues with HR and Management?
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  #52  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:07
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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It's Federal law so valid in all cantons and applies to all permit types.
That's awesome! Mostly because I work and study full time and I have 0 free time to go to German classes.

And since I still have 3 more years of Uni and my B permit expires in 2 years, I was a bit worried about the renewal part!

But now I am more relaxed
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  #53  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:09
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Have any of you non-EU C permit holders moved to a canton where the language is one you do not speak, and if so, did you encounter problems with your permit status?

Half-heartedly eyeing the Romandie, but my schoolgirl French from a lifetime ago is most definitely not up to snuff. Jeopardizing my C permit would be a deal breaker.

Many thanks.
Depends where you're looking. Parts of Fribourg canton are German speaking and even if you moved to a French speaking part of the canton, it's bi-lingual so proficiency in German or French is fine.
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  #54  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:21
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Depends where you're looking. Parts of Fribourg canton are German speaking and even if you moved to a French speaking part of the canton, it's bi-lingual so proficiency in German or French is fine.
What about the Berner Jura?

The commune is French speaking, but Bern is German. Would German proficiency in these villages be sufficient for the Permit Powers That Be to avoid putting a non-EU C permit at risk?

(Ja, I realize that lack of French would be a problem for everyday life. But that's different from the permit question.)
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Old 21.01.2021, 12:22
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Qwertz, that is interesting and wonder what it actually means

''unemployment (by one's own fault)''

does that include anyone who decides to just quit their job - without even trying first to resolve any issues with HR and Management?
The above is my free translation of the way the SEM document phrases it:

selbstverschuldete Arbeitslosigkeit / chômage imputable à une faute de l’assuré / disoccupazione imputabile alla persona in questione

Here you have details from the unemployment insurance law what it means to be unemployed by one's own fault (and subsequently be penalized for benefits):

Art 44 AVIV

To answer your question, just quitting your job without another offer in the pipeline and then requesting unemployment insurance is considered 'by one's own fault'

In fine what I gather from the revision of the FNIA is that the legislator's intention was to avoid to the extend possible foreigners (purposely) falling on any kind of state support, not being proficient in the local language, committing crimes etc.
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  #56  
Old 21.01.2021, 12:22
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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I disagree with your interpretation as the SEM guidance document on this clearly states insufficient language knowledge as a reason to downgrade a C permit to a B permit if a warning is not appropriate (bold above), I let you read the relevant point in the SEM guidance document.
From a practical point of view do we have any statistics on how often this actual happens? I can’t recall a single such incident being posted nor have I ever heard of it happening.
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Old 21.01.2021, 12:30
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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From a practical point of view do we have any statistics on how often this actual happens? I can’t recall a single such incident being posted nor have I ever heard of it happening.
Since the application of the FNIA falls exclusively on cantonal competence, it is anyone's guess how each canton interprets the law but I am not aware of any formal statistics, at least not from the federal bureau of statistics
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Old 21.01.2021, 12:32
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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What about the Berner Jura?

The commune is French speaking, but Bern is German. Would German proficiency in these villages be sufficient for the Permit Powers That Be to avoid putting a non-EU C permit at risk?

(Ja, I realize that lack of French would be a problem for everyday life. But that's different from the permit question.)
I’m pretty sure German is fine from the permit perspective.
We have a friend living in one of the french speaking towns there and he doesn’t speak much french despite having lived for close on 10 years in Neuchâtel. He speaks good German but not much french at all and he got his C permit transferred without any problems. He’s dual nationality Mexican/American. Since permits are cantonal decisions rather than communal and Bern is a German speaking canton I don’t think they could really refuse.
And from a practical point of view most people in those places speak both french and German.

Having said that do not rely on my anecdotal evidence, double check with the relevant authorities.
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Old 21.01.2021, 12:34
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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Have any of you non-EU C permit holders moved to a canton where the language is one you do not speak, and if so, did you encounter problems with your permit status?

Half-heartedly eyeing the Romandie, but my schoolgirl French from a lifetime ago is most definitely not up to snuff. Jeopardizing my C permit would be a deal breaker.

Many thanks.
Ridiculous when a Swiss person can live anywhere in country regardless of their language hey? Are you eligible for citizenship? That would solve the problem.
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Old 21.01.2021, 12:35
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Re: Language requirement increased for permits from 2020

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What about the Berner Jura?

The commune is French speaking, but Bern is German. Would German proficiency in these villages be sufficient for the Permit Powers That Be to avoid putting a non-EU C permit at risk?

(Ja, I realize that lack of French would be a problem for everyday life. But that's different from the permit question.)
Since Bern canton is officially German speaking I think you'd be okay. Obviously if Berner Jura was a separate canton, it wouldn't be, but it's not.
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