Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 16.01.2020, 00:42
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Hi all,
I had a look at the forum but didn't find anything similar to the topic I am opening now. I would appreciate your kind help.
A Turkish friend of ours had his tourist Schengen visa rejected in the Swiss Consulate in Istanbul as his intention to leave the territory of the member states before the expiry of the visa was considered uncertain. We, as hosts, filed an appeal against that decision. Unfortunately there was no positive outcome...Now, I am considering the option to appeal the case to the Federal Administrative Court.
Has anyone been through this procedure? Do you have any ideas about the cost and the layers fees)?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 16.01.2020, 01:10
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
Hi all,
I had a look at the forum but didn't find anything similar to the topic I am opening now. I would appreciate your kind help.
A Turkish friend of ours had his tourist Schengen visa rejected in the Swiss Consulate in Istanbul as his intention to leave the territory of the member states before the expiry of the visa was considered uncertain. We, as hosts, filed an appeal against that decision. Unfortunately there was no positive outcome...Now, I am considering the option to appeal the case to the Federal Administrative Court.
Has anyone been through this procedure? Do you have any ideas about the cost and the layers fees)?
The granting of a visa by a Schengen member state is discretionary, your friend does not have a right to a visa so what point of law would you expect to argue before such a court? Id expect to spend a couple of thousand on such an exercise at a minimum.

At the end of the day the only way your friend will get a visa is if they can demonstrate that they have every reason to return home before the visa expires. Do they have a permanent job? an employer who will confirm it and state they fully expect they will return, other commitments in Turkey that will require them to return such as young family etc... you are really going to have to have a very good case for this to work out.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 16.01.2020, 07:58
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Dear Jim2007,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is my legal right to appeal so I am exploring the possibilities. Unfortunately I am currently on a trip and cannot get in touch with a lawyer expert in these matters (first of all I need to find one!) that's why I posted this topic, to get eventually some valuable help from other members who have been in a similar situation in the meantime.
The official reasoning mentioned in the appeal's decision is that our friend is a young unmarried man who has not travelled in the Schengen area before and they considered also the socioeconomic prevailing situation in his country.
Our friend has a permanent job and he provided all the relevant papers from his employer, allowing him holidays for a few days and expecting him to return on a given day. But apparently they did not take it into consideration...
Any feedback from a member who has been in a similar situation before would be much appreciated!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 16.01.2020, 09:27
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,429
Groaned at 281 Times in 187 Posts
Thanked 18,154 Times in 7,618 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

is there an option to post a bond to ensure return? e.g. you put up 150k and if he doesn't leave schengen by the set date, you lose the money?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 16.01.2020, 14:47
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 370
Groaned at 12 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 213 Times in 124 Posts
ankurm.2008 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
Dear Jim2007,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is my legal right to appeal so I am exploring the possibilities. Unfortunately I am currently on a trip and cannot get in touch with a lawyer expert in these matters (first of all I need to find one!) that's why I posted this topic, to get eventually some valuable help from other members who have been in a similar situation in the meantime.
The official reasoning mentioned in the appeal's decision is that our friend is a young unmarried man who has not travelled in the Schengen area before and they considered also the socioeconomic prevailing situation in his country.
Our friend has a permanent job and he provided all the relevant papers from his employer, allowing him holidays for a few days and expecting him to return on a given day. But apparently they did not take it into consideration...
Any feedback from a member who has been in a similar situation before would be much appreciated!
A visit visa is different than a Tourist Visa. Not clear from your post which one did your friend applied for.

I reckon if you are officially the host then it should have been a Visitor Visa . How was the invitation letter written ? Did you mention that you take full responsibility of your visitor and would ensure that the visitor leaves Schengen Area once the stay is over ? Language is very important and it should instill confidence in the Visa granting officer.

We always write the exact duration of stay of visit and ensuring that visitor travels back on the last day.

I would suggest to appeal by all means , may be you don't need a lawyer. A personal letter from you still might work
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 16.01.2020, 16:10
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
is there an option to post a bond to ensure return? e.g. you put up 150k and if he doesn't leave schengen by the set date, you lose the money?
No idea...I don't think so, otherwise it would have been mentioned somewhere I guess...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 16.01.2020, 16:43
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Thank you Ankurm 2008. It is indeed a visitor's visa. I did mention in the invitation letter everything you suggested and even more. Actually it was the same like the one I had prepared 5 years ago for another person in a similar -or even less favorable- situation who got the visa without problems but apparently, the only thing that had changed is the world...
In fact, the decision states that it is important to remember that given the high demand of visas and the risk that the persons entitled to an entry visa do not depart after the end of their stay, the authorities have adopted a very restrictive policy...
So, I called today the Federal Administrative Court and they were very helpful in providing information, they even suggested that I call SEM before and ask them more details about the decision they took before submitting the appeal. The costs cannot be estimated exactly at the moment, but they would be approximately 750 CHF that would be reimbursed in case of a change in their decision. No lawyer necessary.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 16.01.2020, 18:22
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
Thanks for taking the time to reply. It is my legal right to appeal so I am exploring the possibilities.
Of course you have a legal right to appeal, that is not in dispute. But you can't just turn up a court, especially at the federal level without a good case to argue and not liking the decision of a lower judicial body is not enough, unless you can show that they erred in law or in fact. And that does not seem to be the case.

Quote:
View Post
The official reasoning mentioned in the appeal's decision is that our friend is a young unmarried man who has not travelled in the Schengen area before and they considered also the socioeconomic prevailing situation in his country.
Our friend has a permanent job and he provided all the relevant papers from his employer, allowing him holidays for a few days and expecting him to return on a given day. But apparently they did not take it into consideration...
These are common grounds right across the Schengen area for refusing a visa to a young person, it is not that they did not take your information into consideration, it is insufficient to make it highly likely that he will return. So what if he has a job, the temptation to find another better job somewhere in Europe cancels it out and since there is noting else to keep him..... Also keep in mind that Switzerland has a responsibility towards the other Schengen members for every visa they issue and they are not going to want to have to expelling why they issue a visa to a high risk person, that did not return.

I don't think you are going to get anywhere with this unless you can come up with some kind of compelling reason for him to return home after his visit - say for instance that he has a sick relative that he needs to return to take care of.. he is going to take over the family business... has he travelled to other countries that require a visa and returned as expected... and so on.

Of all the reason for rejecting an application this seems to be the only one without some kind of a quick fix. Good luck with and let us now how it goes.
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 16.01.2020, 18:30
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
A visit visa is different than a Tourist Visa. Not clear from your post which one did your friend applied for.
There is no such thing as a "visit visa". Either a person is coming for as tourist/visitor and apples for a Schengen visa or they are coming for another purpose such as taking up residence, work purpose etc.... in which case a National visa is issued usually type D.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 17.01.2020, 09:59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 370
Groaned at 12 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 213 Times in 124 Posts
ankurm.2008 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
There is no such thing as a "visit visa". Either a person is coming for as tourist/visitor and apples for a Schengen visa or they are coming for another purpose such as taking up residence, work purpose etc.... in which case a National visa is issued usually type D.
Yes, there is a clear difference between "Tourism" Schengen Visa and "Visit" Schengen visa. Links below


https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/u...-schengen.html

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...or_tourism.pdf

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri..._for_visit.pdf
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ankurm.2008 for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:06
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
Yes, there is a clear difference between "Tourism" Schengen Visa and "Visit" Schengen visa. Links below


https://www.eda.admin.ch/countries/u...-schengen.html

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...or_tourism.pdf

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri..._for_visit.pdf
Did you bother reading the first line of the links?

Quote:
Please note: only foreign residents and foreign students in the United States who have a valid permanent resident card or U.S. visa (e.g. categories F1 (I-20), H1B (I-797), G1, J1, I-512, etc.) may apply for a visa.
Do you want to tell us how that relates to a Turkish citizen resident in Turkey, applying for a visa? There is no alternative for the vast majority of people, but a Schengen visa.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post:
This user groans at Jim2007 for this post:
  #12  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 370
Groaned at 12 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 213 Times in 124 Posts
ankurm.2008 has made some interesting contributions
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
Did you bother reading the first line of the links?



Do you want to tell us how that relates to a Turkish citizen resident in Turkey, applying for a visa? There is no alternative for the vast majority of people, but a Schengen visa.
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing and actually have no clue

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...-Besuch_EN.pdf
https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...urismus_EN.pdf


Good weekend !!!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17.01.2020, 11:47
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
You are just arguing for the sake of arguing and actually have no clue

https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...-Besuch_EN.pdf
https://www.eda.admin.ch/dam/countri...urismus_EN.pdf


Good weekend !!!

Good luck with this.


Your commune, where you live, as the inviting party can request a physicla bond upto Chf 50k i believe, to ensure your "friend" returns at the end of their visa.



Your visa renewal will also take this into consideration, if the "friend" doesn't return during the validity of the visa
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 17.01.2020, 12:16
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
There is no such thing as a "visit visa". Either a person is coming for as tourist/visitor and apples for a Schengen visa or they are coming for another purpose such as taking up residence, work purpose etc.... in which case a National visa is issued usually type D.
Yes and no. Although there is only one type of short term stay Schengen visa (Schengen Visa type C) the "purpose of the journey" has an impact if a Schengen visa can or will be issued.

Here the Schengen Visa application form https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...chen-en-de.pdf. See No. 21 and read the description of the boxes.

The Swiss will enter the purpose of journey (Reisezweck) into the comments section of the Visa stamp. https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...sion-bfm-d.pdf
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 17.01.2020, 13:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,871
Groaned at 88 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 11,884 Times in 4,829 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Here's a related thread. Perhaps some of the ideas there might help you. https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...procedure.html
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 18.01.2020, 21:42
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Thanks. I did have a look at it before writing my appeal letter and it was very useful.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank SwissGreek for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 06.02.2020, 09:59
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Gingins
Posts: 20
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
SwissGreek has no particular reputation at present
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
Good luck with this.


Your commune, where you live, as the inviting party can request a physicla bond upto Chf 50k i believe, to ensure your "friend" returns at the end of their visa.



Your visa renewal will also take this into consideration, if the "friend" doesn't return during the validity of the visa
I addressed myself to the commune and they had no idea about this physical bond you are referring to. Then they contacted also the canton and their lawyer and they informed me that there is no such thing existing. Could you please be more specific and give me a link or address me to someone who is competent to provide me with more information about this bond? If this thing does exist I do not want to miss the chance.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06.02.2020, 11:13
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 2,930
Groaned at 37 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 3,944 Times in 1,830 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Not a short-term solution but it can help in the medium term: a passport full of stamps from Schengen zone countries. Some countries have a lower rejection rate for applications. It helps to visit Greece a couple times and returned to Turkey before visa expiration. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...schengen-visa/

This is a bit similar to countries with credit scores. Some grinding is necessary to create a good reputation in databases. Unfair? Maybe, but that's what Turkey has negotiated with the EU so far.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06.02.2020, 11:34
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 22,121
Groaned at 406 Times in 315 Posts
Thanked 17,092 Times in 9,616 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
I addressed myself to the commune and they had no idea about this physical bond you are referring to. Then they contacted also the canton and their lawyer and they informed me that there is no such thing existing. Could you please be more specific and give me a link or address me to someone who is competent to provide me with more information about this bond? If this thing does exist I do not want to miss the chance.
This I assume

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...klaerung-e.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06.02.2020, 12:03
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,508
Groaned at 217 Times in 171 Posts
Thanked 7,418 Times in 3,283 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Visa rejected, appeal unsuccessful...Considering Federal Administrative Courta

Quote:
View Post
I addressed myself to the commune and they had no idea about this physical bond you are referring to. Then they contacted also the canton and their lawyer and they informed me that there is no such thing existing. Could you please be more specific and give me a link or address me to someone who is competent to provide me with more information about this bond? If this thing does exist I do not want to miss the chance.
As I was dropping off our voting papers at the community office just now, I asked them out of interest and they had no idea what I was talking about either...

Hopefully the OP will post a link or something.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Appeal for unlimited work permit is rejected Alirezakarimi Permits/visas/government 39 01.12.2017 20:51
URGENT !! - Advise Needed..( appeal by rejected F permit holder ) Prashath Permits/visas/government 1 16.11.2012 08:55
Federal Court Appeal - Legal advise Cashboy Family matters/health 1 21.06.2012 15:13
Family visa was rejected because of not enough income monthly...i am going to appeal! featherlin Permits/visas/government 16 16.09.2011 08:20
McLaren and Lewis Hamilton Unsuccessful in Their Spa Appeal szhjcn General off-topic 3 23.09.2008 18:20


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0