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Old 20.01.2020, 12:29
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L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

Hello English Forum,

I’ve found some mixed information, so I decided to create a new thread. Thank you for your comments, advice and suggestions.

==Background==
We are a married couple, both non-EU on an L permit with permanent contracts working for large Swiss companies. We relocated to Switzerland ~1 Year ago and our permits were given to us on the basis of highly skilled professionals.

==Questions==
Since we are looking for a really long term stay in Switzerland, we have a few questions which I would appreciate if you could help us to clarify:

1. When you need to renew an L or B permit, is there a chance that it will be rejected because a local/EU was found that can do the job? Does the Canton or the Federal Government check this for every renewal?
2. Does our employer always need to justify why we are still needed for every renewal?
3. What are the requirements to obtain the Early 5-year C permit? Is this early 5-year C permit applicable to all foreigners with B permit? Must the 5 years be on B permit?
4. Is it possible that our permits, since we are married, are tied to one another? So, instead of having two primaries, there is one primary and one dependent on the other? Even though our employer applied for two different permits each of us as highly skilled professionals (also taking into account that the applications where submitted with ~3 weeks of difference)? Or can they be tied in the future?
5. Is there a clear and achievable path to us for Permanent Residency and Citizenship?


Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 20.01.2020, 13:57
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

1 & 2. Yes. An employer has to prove they still can't find a Swiss/EU national when it's time to renew your permit.

3. There's a long thread about VINTA here on the forum

https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...ugh-vinta.html

Yes, you must be on a B permit for a minimum of 5 years; time on an L permit no longer counts iirc. Any foreigner on a B permit can apply.

4. You'd probably have to double check with your migration office, but probably one is dependent on the other.

5. Obtain B permits, work towards being integrated into Swiss life, learn language, etc, apply for a C when possible and then work on applying for citizenship.
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Old 20.01.2020, 14:06
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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Hello English Forum,
1. When you need to renew an L or B permit, is there a chance that it will be rejected because a local/EU was found that can do the job? Does the Canton or the Federal Government check this for every renewal?
2. Does our employer always need to justify why we are still needed for every renewal?
3. What are the requirements to obtain the Early 5-year C permit? Is this early 5-year C permit applicable to all foreigners with B permit? Must the 5 years be on B permit?
4. Is it possible that our permits, since we are married, are tied to one another? So, instead of having two primaries, there is one primary and one dependent on the other? Even though our employer applied for two different permits each of us as highly skilled professionals (also taking into account that the applications where submitted with ~3 weeks of difference)? Or can they be tied in the future?
5. Is there a clear and achievable path to us for Permanent Residency and Citizenship?

Thanks!
1. Not when you are renewing an L or a B permit. It is theoretically possible when your employer tries to convert your L permit to a B one because it requires a cantonal as well as a federal approval for allocating a new unit of B permit quota, but I never heard of it happening to anyone.

2. That depends on the exact approval your employer got for you from the cantonal labor market authority (AWA). Ask your employer for a copy of your 'Stellenantritt' letter, it'll be stated there. It is seemingly random, e.g. me and my wife have had the same job title at the same multinational (and same nationalities), my B permit required the employer to get a new AWA approval every year while she was granted a blanket approval for an indefinite time from her start date in Zurich.

3. It depends as there are many kinds of B permits but should be relatively straightforward in your situation (unlimited contract from the start, even on an L permit, is usually counted towards those 5 years in Zurich).
Read this document, section 5. If your German is too bad, use Google Translate/DeepL and start learning German because you'll need a B1 certificate to apply for an early C permit anyway. That document used to mention explicitly that L permits on permanent contracts counted, now it doesn't but this clause moved to the generic federal guidelines on applying the law of foreigners (see 3.5.2.1 here).

4. That's easy to check. If none of the permit cards mentions "Familiennachzug" then they're independent.

5. Yeah, sure, assuming you learn the language, stay employed and don't commit any crimes. I'm walking this exact path (non EU, started with an L permit and an unlimited contract here in 2012) and I got my early C permit in ZH a bit more than 2 years ago without any problems whatsoever.
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Old 22.01.2020, 18:44
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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1 & 2. Yes. An employer has to prove they still can't find a Swiss/EU national when it's time to renew your permit.
Does the employer need to go again through the whole process to hire a non-EU? And do everything possible to hire a local/EU?

Also, does this mean that if there is a local/EU that can make the job, then my permit will not be renewed and you will be obliged to leave the country? Just like that?
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Old 22.01.2020, 18:46
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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2. That depends on the exact approval your employer got for you from the cantonal labor market authority (AWA). Ask your employer for a copy of your 'Stellenantritt' letter, it'll be stated there. It is seemingly random, e.g. me and my wife have had the same job title at the same multinational (and same nationalities), my B permit required the employer to get a new AWA approval every year while she was granted a blanket approval for an indefinite time from her start date in Zurich.
And in your case, both permits are primary? Or one is dependent on the other?
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Old 22.01.2020, 19:42
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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And in your case, both permits are primary? Or one is dependent on the other?
Both are independent of one another, we weren't married when she moved to Switzerland for work. After our marriage the Migrationsamt tried to make her permit dependent on mine (I had a C while hers was still B) but we just said no and they kept them separate.
It's trivial to make her a dependent permit should the need arise (a spouse of a C permit is entitled to a B permit) but very hard to make a dependent permit independent, so there was no reason for us to put ourselves in a worse position at all.
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Old 22.01.2020, 19:54
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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Does the employer need to go again through the whole process to hire a non-EU? And do everything possible to hire a local/EU?

Also, does this mean that if there is a local/EU that can make the job, then my permit will not be renewed and you will be obliged to leave the country? Just like that?
"An employer has to prove they still can't find a Swiss/EU national when it's time to renew your permit." is just false (sorry Medea). It has no legal basis.
It also doesn't make any sense. The reason with all these hoops an employer must go through when hiring a non-EU person is that there is only a limited number of new non-EU permits to be granted each year (4500 L and 3500 B). However those quotas apply only to the initial permit issuance and not any renewals.

In practice it works like this, assuming you get an L permit first. Of course, this is grossly simplified.

1. Your employer goes through the hoops to hire you from outside Switzerland, proving they couldn't fill this position from within CH/EU. You get an L permit approved (grab one of the 4500 for this year) by the labor market authority, move in and start working.
2. After a year, you need to renew your L permit. You get a form from your Gemeinde/Kreisburo, get it stamped by the employer and turn it back in. The labor market authority signs off on it (a formality) and you get another L permit for 1 year.
3. After two years you can no longer prolong the L permit because you can't have an L permit for more than two years straight. Your employer must apply for a conversion to a B permit and go through another round of proving they can't find a CH/EU person because this time they must secure one of 3500 new B permits that can be granted this year for you. You get a B permit (usually for a year, but sometimes for more).
4. When your B permit approaches expiration, you get a form and stamp it at your employer, the labor market authority signs off on it and you get a next B permit. The employer doesn't have to do anything besides confirming that you still work for them (with that stamp). Repeat until you get a C permit.
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Old 23.01.2020, 11:46
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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"An employer has to prove they still can't find a Swiss/EU national when it's time to renew your permit." is just false (sorry Medea). It has no legal basis.
It also doesn't make any sense. The reason with all these hoops an employer must go through when hiring a non-EU person is that there is only a limited number of new non-EU permits to be granted each year (4500 L and 3500 B). However those quotas apply only to the initial permit issuance and not any renewals.

In practice it works like this, assuming you get an L permit first. Of course, this is grossly simplified.

1. Your employer goes through the hoops to hire you from outside Switzerland, proving they couldn't fill this position from within CH/EU. You get an L permit approved (grab one of the 4500 for this year) by the labor market authority, move in and start working.
2. After a year, you need to renew your L permit. You get a form from your Gemeinde/Kreisburo, get it stamped by the employer and turn it back in. The labor market authority signs off on it (a formality) and you get another L permit for 1 year.
3. After two years you can no longer prolong the L permit because you can't have an L permit for more than two years straight. Your employer must apply for a conversion to a B permit and go through another round of proving they can't find a CH/EU person because this time they must secure one of 3500 new B permits that can be granted this year for you. You get a B permit (usually for a year, but sometimes for more).
4. When your B permit approaches expiration, you get a form and stamp it at your employer, the labor market authority signs off on it and you get a next B permit. The employer doesn't have to do anything besides confirming that you still work for them (with that stamp). Repeat until you get a C permit.
Are you not negating yourself in your point 3 with what you say at the beginning?
basically, for an Non EU L to B conversion, the employer has to prove that they could not find someone within CH/EU who can do the job because a conversion is essentially obtaining a new B permit that comes from the quota and hence the employer needs to prove again.


cheers
happycreature
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  #9  
Old 23.01.2020, 13:03
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Re: L/B Permit Renewal and Early 5-year C permit

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Are you not negating yourself in your point 3 with what you say at the beginning?
Nope, I'm saying that the non-EU hiring process needs to happen every time a new permit of a given kind is issued and not when it is extended.
An L to B conversion is not an extension, it's equivalent to applying for a new B permit. They come from different quota pools.
Extending a permit of a given kind doesn't require securing a new quota unit, it's just that an L permit cannot be extended more than once because of the 2 years max rule in the law. A B permit can be extended indefinitely.

What I am contradicting is "An employer has to prove they still can't find a Swiss/EU national when it's time to renew your permit." because that also implies that extending (=renewing) an existing L or B permit would entail another round of non-EU hiring hoops, and that is not true.
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