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  #21  
Old 30.01.2020, 11:07
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

The Spanish embassy tells me the company, not me, has to register in the social security system of Spain to pay my contributions and taxes for my work, besides my own taxes. So I'm trying to fin a way around this as they will never agree to do this
  #22  
Old 30.01.2020, 11:29
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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The Spanish embassy tells me the company, not me, has to register in the social security system of Spain to pay my contributions and taxes for my work, besides my own taxes. So I'm trying to fin a way around this as they will never agree to do this
The only way around this is when you set up your own company in Spain and send invoices to the Swiss company so that you become liable for taxes and contributions.

And this is all already mentioned in this topic.

Also you have nothing to do with Switzerland for this, and unless you understand how Spanish laws and systems work you'll need a Spanish bookkeeper to help you set up the company and show you how to do proper bookkeeping.
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Old 30.01.2020, 12:14
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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The Spanish embassy tells me the company, not me, has to register in the social security system of Spain to pay my contributions and taxes for my work, besides my own taxes. So I'm trying to fin a way around this as they will never agree to do this
There is no way around it other than to set up your own company in Spain.

Tom
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  #24  
Old 18.01.2021, 23:55
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

Hello, I am in a very similar situation as Coppelia and I am trying to find some answers:
1. I am in touch with a Swiss company which would like to extend an employment offer to me
2. I live in Paris (France, EU) and I would like to be based here
3. The Swiss company does not have any subsidiary in France

They would like to employ me under a Swiss contract.

I know that in France this is possible and there is a detailed procedure explained on the URSSAF website (https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...FE-UK-2017.pdf). Mu understanding is that there is the equivalent in all the EU countries.

The company has been told by one of the big 4 that this is not possible for an employee to be on the Swiss payroll and under Swiss contract if working remotely and that it necessitates the creation of a French subsidiary. I don't think it's true, how can I prove them wrong?

My interpretation is that:
1. I can be under a Swiss contract and work remotely from France directly for the Swiss company
2. My salary would not be subject to Swiss social taxes, not Swiss income tax
3. I wouldn't need a work permit as I'll be working remotely
4. I would "only" need to pay French social taxes (employee part) and French income tax
5. The company would need to pay my base salary + the French social taxes (employer part). They would need to get a Foreign company ID with French URSSAF in order to do that and would need to pay these on a quarterly basis from a proper EUR bank account
6. They would need to have proper pay slips being issued to me on a monthly basis.


My questions:
A. Am I correct?

B. If so, where can I find the proper explanation of the mechanics described above to make them comfortable and prove the Audit firm wrong?

Thank you!

Fred

Where
  #25  
Old 19.01.2021, 22:18
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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Hello, I am in a very similar situation as Coppelia and I am trying to find some answers:
1. I am in touch with a Swiss company which would like to extend an employment offer to me
2. I live in Paris (France, EU) and I would like to be based here
3. The Swiss company does not have any subsidiary in France

They would like to employ me under a Swiss contract.

I know that in France this is possible and there is a detailed procedure explained on the URSSAF website (https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...FE-UK-2017.pdf). Mu understanding is that there is the equivalent in all the EU countries.

The company has been told by one of the big 4 that this is not possible for an employee to be on the Swiss payroll and under Swiss contract if working remotely and that it necessitates the creation of a French subsidiary. I don't think it's true, how can I prove them wrong?

My interpretation is that:
1. I can be under a Swiss contract and work remotely from France directly for the Swiss company
2. My salary would not be subject to Swiss social taxes, not Swiss income tax
3. I wouldn't need a work permit as I'll be working remotely
4. I would "only" need to pay French social taxes (employee part) and French income tax
5. The company would need to pay my base salary + the French social taxes (employer part). They would need to get a Foreign company ID with French URSSAF in order to do that and would need to pay these on a quarterly basis from a proper EUR bank account
6. They would need to have proper pay slips being issued to me on a monthly basis.


My questions:
A. Am I correct?

B. If so, where can I find the proper explanation of the mechanics described above to make them comfortable and prove the Audit firm wrong?

Thank you!

Fred

Where
I have no idea, but you posted this at nearly midnight so maybe folks didn't see it. Have a bump.
  #26  
Old 19.01.2021, 22:59
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

Sounds like a posted worker in another country https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizen...s/index_en.htm

I guess the consultants said it's not possible because of the amount of paperwork and no one from HR wants to invest time on this.

At my job we work with freelancers from around the world, is this not easier? This would the reduce the paperwork load and liability for your employer, it may motivate them.
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Old 19.01.2021, 23:07
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

@3wishes: thanks for the bump !

@axa:
Sort of except that's new contract, that I'm French, always worked in France and wants to stay here.

I need to know if my assumptions are correct and if there are Swiss labour law texts I can refer them too.

I hear you about the administrative burden, however I believe it's not that complicated. Most complicated in my view - but they can get some external firm to do that - is to generate the proper computations for the employer and employee social taxes and generate my pay slip.
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  #28  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:25
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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@3wishes: thanks for the bump !

@axa:
Sort of except that's new contract, that I'm French, always worked in France and wants to stay here.

I need to know if my assumptions are correct and if there are Swiss labour law texts I can refer them too.

I hear you about the administrative burden, however I believe it's not that complicated. Most complicated in my view - but they can get some external firm to do that - is to generate the proper computations for the employer and employee social taxes and generate my pay slip.
Take a look at the Guide pratique «Contrats de travail pour les activités à l'étranger». Not the law but a reference to look for answers https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/fr/dfae...vertraege.html

I'm surprised that you'd get a French contract from a Swiss company. I guess indemnités de licenciement is what Swiss cadres dream when they have nightmares

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En règle générale, les contrats de travail portant sur des activités exercées à l’étranger qui sont conclus avec des entreprises établies en Suisse respectent les normes suisses du droit du travail et sont régis par les dispositions en vigueur là où la personne travaille. Les dispositions de protection inscrites dans la loi doivent toujours être observées.... Les contrats con-clus sous le régime du droit suisse ne peuvent pas déroger aux dispositions de protection prévues par le droit du travail du pays de destination (par ex. durée hebdomadaire légale du travail de 35 heures en France, réintégration en cas de licenciement abusif, indemnités de licenciement).
  #29  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:30
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Alors, take a look at the Guide pratique «Contrats de travail pour les activités à l'étranger». Not the law but a reference to look for answers https://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/fr/dfae...vertraege.html

I'm surprised that you'd get a French contract from a Swiss company. I guess indemnités de licenciement is what Swiss cadres dream when they have nightmares
Not exactly, the idea is for me to get a Swiss contract and:
- work for them totally remotely from France as an employee of the Swiss company,
- without having them setup a French subsidiary nor me being a Freelance and just invoicing them. I would be on their payroll but located in France.

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Not exactly, the idea is for me to get a Swiss contract and:
- work for them totally remotely from France as an employee of the Swiss company,
- without having them setup a French subsidiary nor me being a Freelance and just invoicing them. I would be on their payroll but located in France.
Now I got your sarcasm... sorry I'm slow to understand... Yes, true that would be unlikely to get a French contract. Thanks you for the document about Swiss contracts!

Last edited by roegner; 20.01.2021 at 08:43. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
  #30  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:36
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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Now I got your sarcasm... sorry I'm slow to understand... Yes, true that would be unlikely to get a French contract. Thanks you for the document about Swiss contracts!
Sorry, I'm on my third glass and still finishing some stuff from work. Wine makes me believe I'm witty and funny

Well, good evening and good luck!
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  #31  
Old 19.01.2021, 23:37
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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Sorry, I'm on my third glass and still finishing some stuff from work. Wine makes me believe I'm witty and funny

Well, good evening and good luck!

Thank you very much and good evening to you as well !

Fred
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Old 20.01.2021, 08:18
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

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I can be under a Swiss contract
What does "Swiss contract" mean? Just one according the Swiss Code of Obligations? That one should be perfectly fine regardless where you live.

This is what I understand under a "Swiss contract". So far no permits, social, security, or other employment laws are involved. It is pure contractual law.

No let us see the problem from the other side: You reside in Switzerland and work from Switzerland for an employee in an other EU country which has no office or factory in Switzerland. This is known as ANOBAG (Arbeitnehmende ohne beitragspflichtigen Arbeitgeber, Employee w/o a employer which pays social security) in Switzerland and is nothing unusual.

What you have found on the URSSAF website seems to be the French version of ANOBAG
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...FE-UK-2017.pdf

There is one detail in which both solutions are different from each other: In the Swiss version the employee has the obligation to pay both parts of the social security contributions (employer must reimburse employee) and there is not much of paperwork and formalities for the employer (Apart from the declaration according Art. 21 of Regulation (EC) No 987/2009). Whereas in the French solution the employer must register, submit pay slips, and pay the employer part themselves.
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  #33  
Old 20.01.2021, 08:42
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Re: Working for Swiss company remotely (from Spain) on a Swiss contract? What permit?

As an alternative, can you not work through a French payroll/umbrella company? Your "employer" is then invoiced by and remits the fee to the French company, who make the relevant deductions. If you do this, then you should get your "employer" to pay a little more to cover the payroll company's admin fee. (I say "employer" because the payroll company would be your actual employer).

Of course you won't get any employment rights from the Swiss company, but that's ok, because there barely are any anyway!
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Old 20.01.2021, 08:48
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As an alternative, can you not work through a French payroll/umbrella company? Your "employer" is then invoiced by and remits the fee to the French company, who make the relevant deductions. If you do this, then you should get your "employer" to pay a little more to cover the payroll company's admin fee. (I say "employer" because the payroll company would be your actual employer).

Of course you won't get any employment rights from the Swiss company, but that's ok, because there barely are any anyway!
Thanks for your answer. I could do that indeed but I don’t want it for several reasons. I want to be an actual employee of this firm and not a contractor.

I strongly believe this is possible - see Axa’s quote about contracts above - and I just want some additional reassurance about it (about the Swiss side), preferably through official Swiss law references.

Thanks again,

Fred

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What does "Swiss contract" mean? Just one according the Swiss Code of Obligations? That one should be perfectly fine regardless where you live.

This is what I understand under a "Swiss contract". So far no permits, social, security, or other employment laws are involved. It is pure contractual law.

No let us see the problem from the other side: You reside in Switzerland and work from Switzerland for an employee in an other EU country which has no office or factory in Switzerland. This is known as ANOBAG (Arbeitnehmende ohne beitragspflichtigen Arbeitgeber, Employee w/o a employer which pays social security) in Switzerland and is nothing unusual.

What you have found on the URSSAF website seems to be the French version of ANOBAG
https://www.urssaf.fr/portail/files/...FE-UK-2017.pdf

There is one detail in which both solutions are different from each other: In the Swiss version the employee has the obligation to pay both parts of the social security contributions (employer must reimburse employee) and there is not much of paperwork and formalities for the employer (Apart from the declaration according Art. 21 of Regulation (EC) No 987/2009). Whereas in the French solution the employer must register, submit pay slips, and pay the employer part themselves.
Thank you very much for your answer. I agree with you, the admin burden seems higher for the employer in my case. But you perfectly described it, yes.

I think that comforts me a bit about the feasibility although the admin burden is a bit of a pain.

Thanks again,

Fred

Last edited by roegner; 20.01.2021 at 08:55. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
 




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