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-   -   Permit for child, illogical requirement (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/296653-permit-child-illogical-requirement.html)

Zhanet 09.02.2020 20:04

Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Hello!

Maybe I will find someone here who could help with information about my situation.

I am EU national who has permit already for approximately year. Couple months ago I applied also for my minor child permit, who is also EU national and for whom I hold full custody, father is out of the picture completely. Everything went smooth, when we passed in all the documents - canton said that everything is okey, permit will be given to my child after approximately 4 months. In these months child got enrolled in public school. Couple days ago I received letter that my child will not be given permit if in one month I won't send them biological fathers passport copy and signed document that he allows her to live in Switzerland.

Could it be just common thing in public service that they do not check all the documents they receive (like translated court decision about custody with apostille)? Have anyone had something like this? I am little bit annoyed about the fact that on this letter from service there is no email nor phone number. But there is precise instruction that I can't hand in documents (and explain), I can only send them by post and some kind of special system will check have I sent everything as they asked. :msnsarcastic:

Thank you, and have a nice evening!

roegner 09.02.2020 20:06

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
No idea unfortunately but you need confirmation from the father or mother to take a child abroad.

Hope it works out for you.

Full Circle 09.02.2020 20:12

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Are/were you married to the father?

Zhanet 09.02.2020 20:21

I have full custody, I am only one who can make all the decisions about child. Father lost all his rights after court. So this won't be the case when I need his approval. But thanks for response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Circle (Post 3146489)
Are/were you married to the father?

No, I was not!

Guest 09.02.2020 20:38

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
They could have many reasons for this and full custody does not have the same legal meaning in every country.

If getting those papers from the father is no option I'd say this is about the time to have a lawyer do the talking for you since they are taken more seriously and can open more doors than you can.

Zhanet 09.02.2020 20:45

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

They could have many reasons for this and full custody does not have the same legal meaning in every country.

If getting those papers from the father is no option I'd say this is about the time to have a lawyer do the talking for you since they are taken more seriously and can open more doors than you can.
Yes, that is an option. It is just strange for me, if they really do not take into account legal court decision. As father has signed papers that he refuses any legal rights. Thank you!

Guest 09.02.2020 20:52

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146510)
Yes, that is an option. It is just strange for me, if they really do not take into account legal court decision. As father has signed papers that he refuses any legal rights. Thank you!

Perhaps the father wants visitation rights next year, or the kid wants to see his father in some years, maybe they want the father to pay if in some years your income might take a cut, and custody can come in many diff forms (full, sole, legal, physical etc.. and those forms can even differ per country). Having a paper that the father agrees to his kid moving abroad is the most simply method for the Swiss to take care of whatever problem might arise in future and be certain that all indeed is o.k.

Leaving you with two options:

1. Get the papers.
2. Convince the Swiss that they ask for papers which they do not need and that another solution has to be found, some of us (me included) can tell you that this can be a long road with a lot of frustration.

doropfiz 09.02.2020 21:09

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
I think Roegner and Edwin are right. When you say "father is out of the picture completely", that might not mean the same thing to you
(even to the laws and decrees of your country) as to the Swiss authorities. They are considered to have a duty to find out who and where the child's father is, and what the connection is.

The reason for this question is twofold, first is a general trend in international law and second due to a paradigm shift in Swiss law some years ago.

1. International movement of minor children across borders
As the awareness of child trafficking grows, so too do (and this is a good thing) the checks and double-checks of whether or not this child is being kept safe as she moves, and whether the adults who now say that it's all fine do, in fact, have a legitimate voice. This applies also since, with increasing global mobility, it is easier for a parent to kidnap their own child away from the other parent. Of course I don't know you, and I am not saying, for a moment, that you have done that, only that the Swiss authorities have to do their proper checks.

2. The well-being of the child
Whereas, up until the shift in Swiss law, the parents had rights over their child, and the parent with whom the child does not reside had "visitation rights", now the emphasis is on what is in the best interests of the child, and this includes the child's rights (not those of the adults) to know who their parents are, and to unhindered access to a relationship with both parents. This is considered the norm, the default. Therefore, in divorce cases, and in the arrangements about maintenance payments, if any, the question always comes up of how to guarantee that the child's rights to contact are maintained. This can even go so far as that a Court can order that the parent with whom the child resides has the responsibility to ensure that the child's rights to access to the other parent are maintained as well as possible, even if that other parent contributes nothing, financially or otherwise.

In some other countries (and I don't know about yours) this is viewed completely differently. There, one parent may have full "parental authority" such that the other does not and perhaps even legally cannot participate in the decisions about where his/her child lives. In Switzerland, on the other hand, it is now the default position and very common that the "parental authority" is shared, even between divorced or separated parents, even between those were never married or who hardly had much of a relationship before the child was conceived.

Within Switzerland this change represented a huge shift in the law but also in the thinking about such matters. And it now means that parents bringing children across the border are more likely to be asked not only to produce the formal documentation of birth certificate and Court decision about custory (of course, all of that, too), but also to demonstrate that the other parent has given permission for the move. This, in turn, is because of the legal obligation to ensure that the child's rights (to knowing who that other parent is, to access to them, now or later) are upheld.


Therefore, yes, exactly, to this:
Quote:

Leaving you with two options:

1. Get the papers.
2. Convince the Swiss that they ask for papers which they do not need and that another solution has to be found, some of us (me included) can tell you that this can be a long road with a lot of frustration.

Zhanet 09.02.2020 22:34

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by doropfiz (Post 3146529)
I think Roegner and Edwin are right. When you say "father is out of the picture completely", that might not mean the same thing to you
(even to the laws and decrees of your country) as to the Swiss authorities. They are considered to have a duty to find out who and where the child's father is, and what the connection is.

The reason for this question is twofold, first is a general trend in international law and second due to a paradigm shift in Swiss law some years ago.

1. International movement of minor children across borders
As the awareness of child trafficking grows, so too do (and this is a good thing) the checks and double-checks of whether or not this child is being kept safe as she moves, and whether the adults who now say that it's all fine do, in fact, have a legitimate voice. This applies also since, with increasing global mobility, it is easier for a parent to kidnap their own child away from the other parent. Of course I don't know you, and I am not saying, for a moment, that you have done that, only that the Swiss authorities have to do their proper checks.

2. The well-being of the child
Whereas, up until the shift in Swiss law, the parents had rights over their child, and the parent with whom the child does not reside had "visitation rights", now the emphasis is on what is in the best interests of the child, and this includes the child's rights (not those of the adults) to know who their parents are, and to unhindered access to a relationship with both parents. This is considered the norm, the default. Therefore, in divorce cases, and in the arrangements about maintenance payments, if any, the question always comes up of how to guarantee that the child's rights to contact are maintained. This can even go so far as that a Court can order that the parent with whom the child resides has the responsibility to ensure that the child's rights to access to the other parent are maintained as well as possible, even if that other parent contributes nothing, financially or otherwise.

In some other countries (and I don't know about yours) this is viewed completely differently. There, one parent may have full "parental authority" such that the other does not and perhaps even legally cannot participate in the decisions about where his/her child lives. In Switzerland, on the other hand, it is now the default position and very common that the "parental authority" is shared, even between divorced or separated parents, even between those were never married or who hardly had much of a relationship before the child was conceived.

Within Switzerland this change represented a huge shift in the law but also in the thinking about such matters. And it now means that parents bringing children across the border are more likely to be asked not only to produce the formal documentation of birth certificate and Court decision about custory (of course, all of that, too), but also to demonstrate that the other parent has given permission for the move. This, in turn, is because of the legal obligation to ensure that the child's rights (to knowing who that other parent is, to access to them, now or later) are upheld.


Therefore, yes, exactly, to this:

Thank you for response! So it is more difficult than I expected and authorities of my canton explained in the beginning. They said that court ruling is mandatory to them, and if I give in this paper, than that is it. If it makes my situation more clear - yes, child has all rights for accessing biological father and this and many other questions (visits etc.) are defined by court. But yes, there is no chance for me to get signature from father, as he doesn't want any involvement in child's life. Will see how this goes, definitely will consider getting lawyer.

curley 09.02.2020 22:45

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146580)
Thank you for response! So it is more difficult than I expected and authorities of my canton explained in the beginning. They said that court ruling is mandatory to them, and if I give in this paper, than that is it. If it makes my situation more clear - yes, child has all rights for accessing biological father and this and many other questions (visits etc.) are defined by court. But yes, there is no chance for me to get signature from father, as he doesn't want any involvement in child's life. Will see how this goes, definitely will consider getting lawyer.

If he wants no involvement in child's life he better signs so you can take full care of the child. Explain that to him. He's obviously worried about signing but for once he needs to sign in order not to be involved.

Zhanet 09.02.2020 23:16

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3146589)
If he wants no involvement in child's life he better signs so you can take full care of the child. Explain that to him. He's obviously worried about signing but for once he needs to sign in order not to be involved.

I have full care of child. It is ruled by Court, in our native country. He signed papers, he agreed to this ruling and that is really it - he is somewhere in the world with no worries about child. It just appears, that i have full custody in EU, but not in Switzerland.

doropfiz 09.02.2020 23:26

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
I think you're mistaken in this. If you have full custody in your home country, you also do in Switzerland. Here, this "full custody" means you can take all major decisions about the child's life without consulting him.

Even so, it - probably, most likely - still does not mean that you can move the child internationally without the father's permission.

There is really very little point in trying to persuade the government authorities of any country that their rules don't apply because other rules appy in another country. This is not specific to Switzerland, just as a general principle. Therefore, try your best to fulfil what they ask of you.

Do you know how to find him? Or can you do a thorough search for him? If you can find him, and since you say that he does not want to participate in your child's life, asking him for this further Release Letter is likely to be the easiest course of action, to fulfil the Swiss requirements.

Have the Swiss immigration authorities' letter, setting out what is required translated into his language, and send it to him and ask him to supply you with what the Swiss government is asking.

What is needed, from him, will be be something like
  • a certified or notarised copy of his passport,
  • perhaps proof of his residence and
  • a letter of authority from him permitting you to have the child reside with you in Switzerland.
While you're at it, you could perhaps expand that last part into his permission for you to fully decide in the future, too, independently of any further letter of authority from him, in which country the child lives.

It's going to a be a different matter if you find that he refuses to do this for you and the child. Is that likely?

Or if have no way to reach him.. Is that the case?

curley 09.02.2020 23:28

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146604)
I have full care of child. It is ruled by Court, in our native country. He signed papers, he agreed to this ruling and that is really it - he is somewhere in the world with no worries about child. It just appears, that i have full custody in EU, but not in Switzerland.

I'm sure nobody doubts in Switzerland that you have full custody, after all you got the paper. But he is still the father and taking children across borders is being closely observed.

Also you wrote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146580)
Thank you for response! So it is more difficult than I expected and authorities of my canton explained in the beginning. They said that court ruling is mandatory to them, and if I give in this paper, than that is it. If it makes my situation more clear - yes, child has all rights for accessing biological father and this and many other questions (visits etc.) are defined by court. But yes, there is no chance for me to get signature from father, as he doesn't want any involvement in child's life. Will see how this goes, definitely will consider getting lawyer.

The visiting rights are not only for the child but also for the father. Even it's true he doesn't want to make use of it - he must agree about the child living in an other country.

You must "sell" this to him, I'm afraid. After he signed the child off to you, what's an other signature? Have a lawyer draw the document up and make sure it will be valid until the child is 18 years old and any country you may chose to live in in future.

NotAllThere 10.02.2020 07:46

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146482)
Could it be just common thing in public service that they do not check all the documents they receive (like translated court decision about custody with apostille)?

Not common, but boy does it happen from time to time. People scan rather than reading, or just look at document titles.

Check this isn't the case - possibly with a lawyers help - before doing anything else.

Zhanet 10.02.2020 13:59

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Court document says that from “that and that date” child wil live with mother in mothers approved place of residence, internationaly. It even says that when mother decides to visit native country, she can give notice to father one day before, so he can decide will he want a visit (so we understand that residence of child is not native country by default). Double checked also part about school holidays - document says that every year I must send to father holiday schedule for Switzerland or any other country where child will live. So, in my subjective opinion, father has signed document which says that child can live also abroad, if mother decides.

Guest 10.02.2020 14:30

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146769)
Court document says that from “that and that date” child wil live with mother in mothers approved place of residence, internationaly. It even says that when mother decides to visit native country, she can give notice to father one day before, so he can decide will he want a visit (so we understand that residence of child is not native country by default). Double checked also part about school holidays - document says that every year I must send to father holiday schedule for Switzerland or any other country where child will live. So, in my subjective opinion, father has signed document which says that child can live also abroad, if mother decides.

All you can do is that either you or a lawyer asks for an appointment during which your point of view can be explained in details. And if that is not enough make further decisions based on what the Swiss tell you.

In my experience you need to get in touch with the people who do not stand behind the counter themselves, and this is almost impossible if you just walk by.

curley 10.02.2020 16:50

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146769)
Court document says that from “that and that date” child wil live with mother in mothers approved place of residence, internationaly. It even says that when mother decides to visit native country, she can give notice to father one day before, so he can decide will he want a visit (so we understand that residence of child is not native country by default). Double checked also part about school holidays - document says that every year I must send to father holiday schedule for Switzerland or any other country where child will live. So, in my subjective opinion, father has signed document which says that child can live also abroad, if mother decides.

I share your opinion.
Make a copy, highlight those parts, send it in again. Add a letter saying something like "wie Sie dem Gerichtsurteil entnehmen können, gestand mir das Gericht und der Vater des Kindes bereits die freie Wahl des Wohnsitzes für mich und mein Kind weltweit zu"
(as you can see in the court-ruling, court and father of the child have already me the free choice of domicile for my child and me, anywhere in the world).

I'd do that before involving a lawyer. It really could be they didn't read the document properly or are not used to such a clause. Is the document translated to a Swiss language?

Zhanet 10.02.2020 17:04

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by curley (Post 3146844)
I share your opinion.
Make a copy, highlight those parts, send it in again. Add a letter saying something like "wie Sie dem Gerichtsurteil entnehmen können, gestand mir das Gericht und der Vater des Kindes bereits die freie Wahl des Wohnsitzes für mich und mein Kind weltweit zu"
(as you can see in the court-ruling, court and father of the child have already me the free choice of domicile for my child and me, anywhere in the world).

I'd do that before involving a lawyer. It really could be they didn't read the document properly or are not used to such a clause. Is the document translated to a Swiss language?

Thank you, I really feel like doing as you mentioned.

Yes, it is translated in french, and translation & document is authenticated with apostille by sworn notary.

doropfiz 10.02.2020 22:52

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
I think that's a good suggestion, Curley. Could you, or someone else, please translate your suggested letter text into French, as Zhanet is in Vaud?

doropfiz 10.02.2020 23:04

Re: Permit for child, illogical requirement
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146482)
I am little bit annoyed about the fact that on this letter from service there is no email nor phone number. But there is precise instruction that I can't hand in documents (and explain), I can only send them by post and some kind of special system will check have I sent everything as they asked. :msnsarcastic:

Yes, this is the correct Swiss way. Letters and documents on paper, in an envelope.

You cannot go there to explain in person (unless you or a lawyer manages to set up an appointment to do so). But you can write a good covering letter, and I think Curley's suggestion is useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhanet (Post 3146482)
...I received letter that my child will not be given permit if in one month I won't send them biological fathers passport copy and signed document that he allows her to live in Switzerland.

This is what they've asked for. Okay, then, use Curley's suggestion to reply that the document is, in fact, the one that allows her to live in Switzerland. And definitely do not say anything like that they already have this document, but simply attach a new copy of the document. Use their exact wording in your letter, and quote each separate part of the document which you are claiming does, indeed, fulfil exactly what they are asking for.

Even so, Zhanet, if this doesn't work, I think you might come up against the blank statement that x and y are the documents they need from you in terms of the way things are done here. If that happens, you can either produce them, or simply face not getting the permit for your child. That probably feels both harsh and absurd to you, but I'd like to add to what Edwin has written above to say that your least difficult option (with regard to the requirements set by government departments) is to deliver, as far as possible, exactly what they asked for.

Therefore, it might be worth your while thinking through approaching the child's father (since you clearly do have to know how to contact him) and asking him to supply the copy of his passport, and a freshly signed letter from him. Presumably you'll have your reasons for not wanting to approach him for them, and on a personal, emotional, relational level, those reasons may be fully valid. Just bear in mind that they may not suffice to give a government official the authority to make an exception, for you, to the rule.


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