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Old 29.05.2020, 19:07
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VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

Hi all,

Has anyone recently submitted a VINTA C permit application? If so, how long did it take to get SEM approval in Bern?

I am from one of the countries that has a settlement agreement with Switzerland and have been told by my canton that my application needs approval by the SEM as I have requested to count my student years towards the C permit. I am 2 years into my 5 year B permit.

Any past experiences would be helpful to gauge timelines.

Thank you very much!
Matthias
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Old 29.05.2020, 19:14
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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Hi all,

Has anyone recently submitted a VINTA C permit application? If so, how long did it take to get SEM approval in Bern?

I am from one of the countries that has a settlement agreement with Switzerland and have been told by my canton that my application needs approval by the SEM as I have requested to count my student years towards the C permit. I am 2 years into my 5 year B permit.

Any past experiences would be helpful to gauge timelines.

Thank you very much!
Matthias
VINTA is early C permit application which you would not need as a citizen from the EU. As to whether your student years count, check the forum section on permits?

And I do not think you can get a C permit after 2 years (unless you are a professor and some other exceptions)
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Old 30.05.2020, 08:10
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

Why? You'd get a C permit after 5 years on a B anyway providing you meet the requirements which you must do since you're applying early. Is it even possible for EU nationals to apply under VINTA? I thought it was for non-EUs only.

How many citizenships do you have?
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Old 30.05.2020, 08:55
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

The OP of this thread managed it (see post #20), suggest you contact them.

https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...-c-lawyer.html
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Old 30.05.2020, 09:11
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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The OP of this thread managed it (see post #20), suggest you contact them.

https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-...-c-lawyer.html
Thank you so much! This is exactly my case, I will post back with the outcome
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Old 30.05.2020, 11:15
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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Why? You'd get a C permit after 5 years on a B anyway providing you meet the requirements which you must do since you're applying early. Is it even possible for EU nationals to apply under VINTA? I thought it was for non-EUs only.

How many citizenships do you have?
I only have 1 citizenship (country with a settlement agreement with Switzerland).

It is through VINTA (early C permit) because I am applying ahead of the N+5 date from the issuance of my 5 year B permit.

I was told any early C permit application needs SEM approval (regardless whether settlement agreement countries/rest of EU/non-EU) because you apply before the normal C permit route eligibility date (5 or 10 years depending on nationality).

Now I wonder whether I have a 'right' (Anspruch) to the C permit given my country's settlement agreement or it's up to SEM discretion given it's an early C application anyway...
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Old 30.05.2020, 11:30
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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I only have 1 citizenship (country with a settlement agreement with Switzerland).

It is through VINTA (early C permit) because I am applying ahead of the N+5 date from the issuance of my 5 year B permit.

I was told any early C permit application needs SEM approval (regardless whether settlement agreement countries/rest of EU/non-EU) because you apply before the normal C permit route eligibility date (5 or 10 years depending on nationality).

Now I wonder whether I have a 'right' (Anspruch) to the C permit given my country's settlement agreement or it's up to SEM discretion given it's an early C application anyway...
What country are you from?

I think VINTA only applies to people who are normally entitled to a C permit at 10 years. If you are normally entitled after 5 years on a B it’s not VINTA, even if your current B is still valid. You are just requesting a C as entitled (assuming student B counts).
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Old 30.05.2020, 11:55
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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What country are you from?

I think VINTA only applies to people who are normally entitled to a C permit at 10 years. If you are normally entitled after 5 years on a B it’s not VINTA, even if your current B is still valid. You are just requesting a C as entitled (assuming student B counts).
OK thank you! I come from Austria
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Old 30.05.2020, 13:55
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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OK thank you! I come from Austria
Then why list all those other countries of which you aren't a citizen in your thread title?
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Old 30.05.2020, 18:22
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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Then why list all those other countries of which you aren't a citizen in your thread title?
To make it clear I am referring to a country that belongs to the settlement agreement group (hence the etc.) without being overly specific about my nationality
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  #11  
Old 30.05.2020, 18:34
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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To make it clear I am referring to a country that belongs to the settlement agreement group (hence the etc.) without being overly specific about my nationality
Which meant nothing to me because I've never heard of such agreements. How do they differ from just being members of the EU?
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Old 30.05.2020, 19:02
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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Which meant nothing to me because I've never heard of such agreements. How do they differ from just being members of the EU?
The settlement agreements for C permits have nothing to do with the EU. Liechtenstein (a non-EU country) is also within this group.

You can read more on sections 0.2.1.3.2 and 3.5.2.1 of the SEM guidelines

Besondere Niederlassungsfristen für Staatsangehörige, die sich auf. eine Niederlassungsvereinbarung mit der Schweiz berufen können: Aufgrund von Niederlassungsvereinbarungen erhalten die Staatsangehörigen folgender Staaten die Niederlassungsbewilligung nach einem ordnungsgemässen und ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt von fünf Jahren in der Schweiz: Liechtenstein, Belgien, Dänemark, Deutschland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Italien, Niederlande, Österreich, Portugal und Spanien.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-d.pdf
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Old 30.05.2020, 19:05
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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To make it clear I am referring to a country that belongs to the settlement agreement group (hence the etc.) without being overly specific about my nationality
You mean the FMOP agreement. That is different from VINTA.

And yes, the people from countries listed :

Liechtenstein, Belgien, Dänemark, Deutschland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Italien, Niederlande, Österreich, Portugal und Spanien

can get a C permit after 5 years.
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Old 30.05.2020, 19:13
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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You mean the FMOP agreement. That is different from VINTA.
No, I already benefitted from FMOP to get my 5 year B permit.

I meant VINTA as my application for C is early (currently 2 years into my 5 year B permit) as I have over 5 years total residency in Switzerland if you include my student B years from before my 5 year B permit.
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Old 30.05.2020, 19:19
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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The settlement agreements for C permits have nothing to do with the EU. Liechtenstein (a non-EU country) is also within this group.

You can read more on sections 0.2.1.3.2 and 3.5.2.1 of the SEM guidelines

Besondere Niederlassungsfristen für Staatsangehörige, die sich auf. eine Niederlassungsvereinbarung mit der Schweiz berufen können: Aufgrund von Niederlassungsvereinbarungen erhalten die Staatsangehörigen folgender Staaten die Niederlassungsbewilligung nach einem ordnungsgemässen und ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt von fünf Jahren in der Schweiz: Liechtenstein, Belgien, Dänemark, Deutschland, Frankreich, Griechenland, Italien, Niederlande, Österreich, Portugal und Spanien.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/dam/data/se...ngen-aug-d.pdf
Oh! The countries that don't need to meet the language criteria to get a C permit.
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Old 30.05.2020, 19:23
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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No, I already benefitted from FMOP to get my 5 year B permit.

I meant VINTA as my application for C is early (currently 2 years into my 5 year B permit) as I have over 5 years total residency in Switzerland if you include my student B years from before my 5 year B permit.
VINTA is an early C permit for non EU. Different from asking for a C permit for EU.
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Old 30.05.2020, 22:03
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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No, I already benefitted from FMOP to get my 5 year B permit.

I meant VINTA as my application for C is early (currently 2 years into my 5 year B permit) as I have over 5 years total residency in Switzerland if you include my student B years from before my 5 year B permit.

Well, actually you're application for a C permit is not "early". The years on a student B permit do count in your case as you've been in possession of a regular 5 year B permit for the last two years.

I would argue with paragraph 4.1.1 of the following document: https://ma.zh.ch/internet/sicherheit...lligung+IW.pdf
Vorübergehende Aufenthalte werden an den ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt in den letzten fünf Jahren nicht angerechnet. Vorübergehender Natur sind insbesondere Aufenthalte für Ausbildung, Studium, ärztliche Behandlung, Kur, Kurzaufenthalte usw. (SEM-Weisung Ziffer 3.4.3.5.2). Aufenthalte zur Aus-oder Weiterbildung (Art. 27 AIG) werden angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs. 5 AIG).
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Old 30.05.2020, 22:57
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

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Well, actually you're application for a C permit is not "early". The years on a student B permit do count in your case as you've been in possession of a regular 5 year B permit for the last two years.

I would argue with paragraph 4.1.1 of the following document: https://ma.zh.ch/internet/sicherheit...lligung+IW.pdf
Vorübergehende Aufenthalte werden an den ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt in den letzten fünf Jahren nicht angerechnet. Vorübergehender Natur sind insbesondere Aufenthalte für Ausbildung, Studium, ärztliche Behandlung, Kur, Kurzaufenthalte usw. (SEM-Weisung Ziffer 3.4.3.5.2). Aufenthalte zur Aus-oder Weiterbildung (Art. 27 AIG) werden angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs. 5 AIG).
Thank you and I would agree with you.

I have actually submitted my application based on Art. 34 Abs. 5 as you mention but my canton told me they will treat it as an early request (Vorzeitige Erteilung) that needs SEM approval. According to them if I wait until the 5 year B permit it up, the canton is the sole decision maker as it would not be an early request (no need to raise to SEM).

From the SEM directives, integration criteria when issuing a C permit to Austrians (in my case) do not seem to be as strict as through standard early C/VINTA requests, from 0.2.1.3.2 of the SEM guidelines:

Quote:
Bei der Erteilung der Niederlassungsbewilligung sind die Integrationskriterien (Art. 58a Abs. 1 AIG; Ziff. 3.3.1) nur massgebend, wenn sie einen Widerruf der Niederlassungsbewilligung rechtfertigen würden. Nicht ausreichende Sprachkompetenzen allein rechtfertigen den Widerruf nicht.
I am just curious to understand through what eyes the SEM will examine my case, whether full VINTA treatment (with wiggle room to reject) or as an Austrian (with less wiggle room to reject).

In any case I will (hopefully soon) post what the outcome is!
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Old 31.05.2020, 09:25
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

Probably Art 62

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...232/index.html
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Old 22.06.2020, 16:16
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Re: VINTA C permit for Germany/France/Italy etc. citizen

Hi all, just a quick update: I received my C permit in the post this morning.

For the record and in case helpful to anyone out there, as an Austrian the legal basis for my C permit was the settlement agreement and not VINTA (and so was never sent to the SEM for second approval).

I applied in April but my dossier was not even looked at until exactly N+2 years since my graduation from a Swiss uni (and subsequently working on a long-term B permit).

Shortly after the N+2 date I received a 'soft' rejection letter stating that I had to wait until my 5 year B permit was up and that if I wanted an official decision I needed to pay.

Instead of asking for an official decision, I called and spoke very calmly with a person and asked if they could take a second look at my case as I was confused by the initial refusal. They told me they would look into it and 1 week later it was granted.

I don't think this would have gone the same direction should I have contested in writing or started an appeal process (or if I was from a non-settlement agreement country for that matter). I believe it is always best to clarify over the phone informally as it certainly helps to put a voice behind a stack of documents

Thanks for your inputs in the thread and hope this helps someone!
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