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Old 24.06.2020, 18:26
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permit C anticipées (I think)

Hello,

We are British and have lived in Geneva for just over 5 years. The first 4 of these years was on a carte de legitimation with my husband's work. I have worked in a non-UN job for 10 years (we initially lived in neighboring France). My husband retired early last year and since then, we have permit Bs.

My son, 19, is a student at Geneva university and completed his final years of schooling in Geneva. He wants his permit C in order to eventually obtain citizenship. He is well integrated and has the full support of Swiss Cycling as he is one of the best cyclists in Switzerland for his age. Taking advice from a lawyer she indicated that because of his integration and the support of Swiss Cycling, he may be awarded a permit C, despite 4 of the 5 years of residence in Geneva being on a carte de legitimation.

Does anyone have any advice to offer? Pitfalls to watch for?

Whilst the paperwork looks simple enough, my son has no employment and is a student. We intend to obtain attestations from as many influential people as we know to support his integration / claim.

Thanks
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Old 25.06.2020, 14:38
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

Welcome to the Forum. Unfortunately it appears that his time on CdL does not count towards the 5 years.

Here's a post of mine from a different thread, with links to the Geneva cantonal website:

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... the cantonal website seems to indicate you can only obtain a C permit after holding L or B for at least 5 years (in French):
https://www.ge.ch/demander-permis-c

This brochure also indicates that having a CdL doesn't count towards the 5 years (see page 8 of 12):
https://www.ge.ch/document/bie-permi...oi/telecharger
If you have an attorney on your side to fight regarding the exceptional cycling skills, then it might be worthwhile to try. A simple application would probably be rejected, not only because of the CdL but also because he can't support himself financially yet.
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Old 25.06.2020, 14:54
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

SEM Handbook Section 7.2.6.2 https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/fr/home...matischen.html

Children
On request, the cantonal authority responsible for foreign nationals may issue children over 21 years of age with a residence or establishment permit that is independent of the status of the main holder if they are no longer entitled to a legitimation card, in particular because they no longer live in the same household as the main holder. The approval of the SEM remains reserved.

An independent residence permit may also be issued to a child under the age of 21 years if he or she founds his or her own family, or if he or she acquires sufficient financial independence through work in Switzerland and therefore no longer lives in the same household as the principal holder.
The child may obtain a permanent residence permit after a total stay of 12 years from the time of the granting of the legitimation card if he or she has lived in Switzerland uninterruptedly for the last five years, but at the latest after a regular and uninterrupted stay of 10 years (or five years according to bilateral agreements or on the basis of reciprocity) from the time of the granting of the independent residence permit.

If the child has been domiciled in Switzerland but has studied in the neighbouring border zone, or has resided in the border zone while carrying out the major part of his or her schooling in Switzerland, he or she is treated in the same way as a child who has resided and studied in Switzerland. The cantonal authority responsible for aliens may grant him or her a residence or settlement permit if he or she satisfies the conditions set out above. In the case of nationals of EU and EFTA member States, the provisions of the FMPA, the FMPA and the SEM II Directives are decisive.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Given the above, I would say at 5 years of B are needed (UK has a bilateral agreement).
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Old 25.06.2020, 15:33
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

To follow up on the above, the UK and Switzerland do not have an agreement for settlement after 5 years instead of 10 (contrary to Germany, France, Italy and the list of countries that do not need to supply language certificates for C permits).

The practice of issuing UK nationals (and the remainder of some western European countries) a C permit after 5 years and not 10 is merely out of reciprocity and not from a binding text in international law. More information can be found in the SEM handbook.

Is your son currently on a student B permit?
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Old 25.06.2020, 17:13
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

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To follow up on the above, the UK and Switzerland do not have an agreement for settlement after 5 years instead of 10 (contrary to Germany, France, Italy and the list of countries that do not need to supply language certificates for C permits).

The practice of issuing UK nationals (and the remainder of some western European countries) a C permit after 5 years and not 10 is merely out of reciprocity and not from a binding text in international law. More information can be found in the SEM handbook.
Here the agreement which does not exist between Swiss Confederation and Her Majesty the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland: https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...003/index.html
Said Queen is no one less than Queen Victoria as the agreement is from 1855.

You might challenge, based on said treaty, if a language test is actually mandatory, as UK citizens might not be treated worse than the most favorably treated citizens.
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Old 25.06.2020, 17:25
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

Yes precisely what you link is not an establishment agreement but a reciprocity treaty which has a different legal weight as interpreted and applied by the SEM. More on point 0.2.1.3.1 of the SEM handbook
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Old 25.06.2020, 17:47
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

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You might challenge, based on said treaty, if a language test is actually mandatory, as UK citizens might not be treated worse than the most favorably treated citizens.
This applies to already established UK citizens. For new establishment requests full integration criteria (of which producing a language certificate is one) apply as per the FNIA
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Old 25.06.2020, 18:07
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

I do not see the "already established UK citizens" part in the treaty.

No UK citizen has so far challenged the SEM decision. Furthermore, requesting a language certificate is a relative new thing. In the past UK citizens were granted C w/o an certificate after 5 years. The SEM Weissungen are pretty comprehensive but not free of errors.
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Old 25.06.2020, 18:31
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

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I do not see the "already established UK citizens" part in the treaty.

No UK citizen has so far challenged the SEM decision. Furthermore, requesting a language certificate is a relative new thing. In the past UK citizens were granted C w/o an certificate after 5 years. The SEM Weissungen are pretty comprehensive but not free of errors.
It is written in the SEM handbook and applies to all treaty countries (not just UK), same section 0.2.1.3.1

Language certificates for UK citizens (and other non settlement agreement countries) requesting C permits came into force with the revision of the FNIA effective 01.01.2018 which stresses integration much more than the previous foreigners law.

Integration and language requirements could not be extended to settlement agreement countries given how legally restrictive their settlement agreements are.
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Old 25.06.2020, 19:23
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

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It is written in the SEM handbook and applies to all treaty countries (not just UK), same section 0.2.1.3.1
But not all treaties are the same. Some treaties are better. It could be a simple case of overlook. We will see once the first UK citizen claims that they must get the same preferential treatment as the most favored countries. Till then I will watch how the water flows down the river Rhein.
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Old 26.06.2020, 07:06
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

Back to OP’s son:

If your son went from 4 years CdL to a student B permit on the basis of his studies at UniGE (renewable annually) then he will need to wait until he graduates and is immediately after on a durable B permit for at least 2 years for his time to retroactively count for a C permit.

If he went from CdL to a durable B permit (as a dependent of your retiree 5-year B permit), then he could apply in 1 years time. Nothing stops him from applying before but there is no legal basis, it would be a derogation to the usual procedure for which there is a clause in the law but is seldom applied.
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Old 27.06.2020, 16:35
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

He went from 4 years on a CdL to a permit B based on my employment. We know that technically he does not have enough years, however, we hope to apply based on integration.

We wondered if anyone knew of anyone who'd managed to get a permit C based on integration and what their experiences had been.

My son is involved in sport at local, regional and national level in both cycling and skiing. We've had an apartment in Valais for 13 years and we've spent every Christmas and summer holiday there. Unfortunately, since this is a holiday ownership - it doesn't count. But my son is well integrated in both communities.
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Old 28.06.2020, 10:58
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

Integration is a pre-requisite for C permit (along with relevant number of years). Nothing stops him from applying now but be ready to argue why the CdL years should count and why he should receive it before the 5 year mark.
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Old 28.06.2020, 11:10
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Re: permit C anticipées (I think)

I’d get letters of recommendation from his skiing and cycling coaches as well, along the lines of him being good enough to represent Switzerland.
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