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-   -   Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home (https://www.englishforum.ch/permits-visas-government/299470-frontalier-moving-b-permit-avoid-24-9-working-home.html)

byron13 05.08.2020 09:32

Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Dear all, something interesting for several frontaliers.

I leave in France and my company is happy for me working from home (WFH) possibly for longer term.

With the 24.9% WFH suspended in France till 31st of August (maybe it will get extended) I would like to expand options of me not legally getting forced to visit my office.

One of my thoughts was to move my address to my Swiss canton (Aargau) by finding to rent a tiny room while I still stay at my family house in France.

Will this work and will this give me a B permit?

Any suggestions?

HickvonFrick 05.08.2020 10:35

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by byron13 (Post 3204063)
Dear all, something interesting for several frontaliers.

I leave in France and my company is happy for me working from home (WFH) possibly for longer term.

With the 24.9% WFH suspended in France till 31st of August (maybe it will get extended) I would like to expand options of me not legally getting forced to visit my office.

One of my thoughts was to move my address to my Swiss canton (Aargau) by finding to rent a tiny room while I still stay at my family house in France.

Will this work and will this give me a B permit?

Any suggestions?

Pretty certain that's not legal, and at least the French will likely ultimately find out and make you pay taxes in France. You'll also likely be in hot water as regards the 24.9% rule. Basically don't go there would be my advice.

You'll ultimately need to actually live in Switzerland if you want to continue WFH. If you are British you might want to investigate whether you need to do this by the end of the Brexit transition period.

byron13 05.08.2020 14:40

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HickvonFrick (Post 3204091)
Pretty certain that's not legal, and at least the French will likely ultimately find out and make you pay taxes in France. You'll also likely be in hot water as regards the 24.9% rule. Basically don't go there would be my advice.

You'll ultimately need to actually live in Switzerland if you want to continue WFH. If you are British you might want to investigate whether you need to do this by the end of the Brexit transition period.

Thanks HickvonFrick, I understand it is not so Legal but I am not so sure that the French will be able to trace?

bowlie 05.08.2020 14:48

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by byron13 (Post 3204164)
Thanks HickvonFrick, I understand it is not so Legal but I am not so sure that the French will be able to trace?

The communes around Geneva have been doing their best to stop tax fraud with French residents claiming Swiss residency. Iím sure they will share their secrets with your commune.

JackieH 05.08.2020 15:23

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
checking water and electricity meters and use, for instance. You have to register with the Swiss Gemeinde as soon as you move in (about a week) - and you will become liable for Swiss taxes and compulsory Health Insurance.


+ you underestimate the 'curtain twitchers' - your neighbours will be very aware you don't live there and start asking questions with their mates at the Gemeinde, etc.

Meerkat33 05.08.2020 16:55

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
With your family there, it will be a hard sell, if your job is less than 1 hour of car even more so. I would check sanctions in France too.

bowlie 05.08.2020 17:01

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
The French will know if you are crossing the frontier, and how frequently. There are cameras at every crossing these days.

Guest 05.08.2020 17:18

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by byron13 (Post 3204164)
Thanks HickvonFrick, I understand it is not so Legal but I am not so sure that the French will be able to trace?

Would they even bother?

We never set out with that intent, but lived most of the time at our French house while keeping a Swiss address and permit. At the time, before the bilateral agreements, this was a very grey area, with both French and Swiss able to claim that we lived there.

On the French side it was only ever the Douanes who were bothered, mainly about car usage. We obviously (as houseowners) pay all local taxes and charges and could legitimately claim to be spending enough time in CH (as homeowners there too) to remain Swiss resident as defined in the bilaterals.

Anyway, since 2007 or whenever it was it's unlikely that they will systematically target you, although more so on AG or BS plates than the OW and now VS ones our cars wear.

But, and this might be a big but, once you've been tax resident in France it may be much more difficult to persuade them that you're no longer living there, so our experiences may not be so relevant.

Guest 05.08.2020 17:19

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3204240)
The French will know if you are crossing the frontier, and how frequently. There are cameras at every crossing these days.

No, there are not.

bowlie 05.08.2020 17:35

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

No, there are not.
Thatís one of the tools that the communes around Geneva are using. And they havenít been shy about telling people thatís how they were done.

I canít swear that they exist along the entire frontier but one will never know which ones have one.

ipoddle 05.08.2020 17:49

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
'moving your address' to Switzerland won't work.. you'll have to emigrate from France and become a resident in Switzerland.. (almost certainly means you'll need your employer to request a permit (B probably) for you.. will all take time)..of course you can have a 'holiday home' in France as well at same time

st2lemans 05.08.2020 17:56

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
24.9% of what? :confused:

Tom

Guest 05.08.2020 18:16

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3204240)
The French will know if you are crossing the frontier, and how frequently. There are cameras at every crossing these days.

Quote:

No, there are not.
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3204248)
Thatís one of the tools that the communes around Geneva are using. And they havenít been shy about telling people thatís how they were done.

Bear in mind that the OP is talking about the Basel area, not Geneva. There are many unmanned country crossings within just a few km of the City, it's really quite different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3204248)
I canít swear that they exist along the entire frontier but one will never know which ones have one.

The Basel motorway crossing does indeed have some sort of cameras, but the others in general do not. And even where they do, they are not used to target commuters in this way (having done this commute on Swiss plates for many years, and my wife still does, Covid notwithstanding).

JackieH 05.08.2020 19:09

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Ace, you are talking about the other way round. Were you paying for Swiss Health/accident insurance for the duration? You were registered with your Swiss Gemeinde too, and had B or C permit. Totally different kettle of fish.

Guest 05.08.2020 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 3204260)
24.9% of what? :confused:

Frontaliers aren't allowed to work from home, i.e. not in Switzerland, more than 25% (I know of the rule in theory, but I'm assuming the actual number from the OP), but it's been relaxed during the Covid period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieH (Post 3204273)
Ace, you are talking about the other way round. Were you paying for Swiss Health/accident insurance for the duration? You were registered with your Swiss Gemeinde too, and had B or C permit. Totally different kettle of fish.

ITYF this is exactly what the OP is wanting to do, find a Swiss address that allows him to officially work from his new Swiss 'home' more than the 25% restriction that applies to Frontaliers, but actually spend most of his time at his existing house in France.

JackieH 05.08.2020 19:19

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
but in your case, you were registered in Switzerland, had health/accident insurance and permit, no? He has not got either.

3Wishes 05.08.2020 19:31

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieH (Post 3204277)
but in your case, you were registered in Switzerland, had health/accident insurance and permit, no? He has not got either.

I think you're right about Ace. It would appear OP wants his cake and eat it too. Folks are explaining he'd need to register as resident in CH with all that entails, which is perhaps less attractive once OP gets into the details of taxation and health insurance.

How would authorities check or know? Beats me, but I'm sure OP isn't the first to come up with this idea so it's not some magic trick.

OP, if you're that worried, why not have a doctor certify you need to continue working X% from home?

Guest 05.08.2020 20:04

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieH (Post 3204277)
but in your case, you were registered in Switzerland, had health/accident insurance and permit, no? He has not got either.

Well yes, I was assuming, from "move my address to my Swiss canton (Aargau)" and the mention of the B permit, that he was aware that the only way it could work would be to be officially Swiss resident. Otherwise it makes no sense at all.

HickvonFrick 06.08.2020 00:03

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bowlie (Post 3204248)
Thatís one of the tools that the communes around Geneva are using. And they havenít been shy about telling people thatís how they were done.

I canít swear that they exist along the entire frontier but one will never know which ones have one.

Near Basel they definitely don't. Plus, if you really wanted to you could do a France-Germany-Switzerland route. For large bits of Basel that might even be the optimal route.

k_and_e 06.08.2020 07:42

Re: Frontalier moving to B permit to avoid the 24.9% working from home
 
If an employee would be mainly and structurally be working from home now, in a country with a lower cost of living, then why not offer them a French contract? Could be an easy way for an employer to save cost and legal hassle.


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