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Old 22.11.2020, 21:22
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permit c revocation?

hi all.

My ex-wife (EU national) has been unemployed for around 4 years now. For 2 years, she lived off of unemployment but for the last 2 years she has been living off of her savings plus my monthly pension. She has been refused social assistance so far as she still has some saving left...but it is quickly running out and my pension to her stops in 2022.

We have 2 kids - both adult and live with neither of us.

Everyone's C permit is up for renewal in a few months.

My questions:

1. would my ex-wife's C permit be renewed or will it be revoked as she is not fulfilling the "lucrative employment" requirement for getting a new permit?
2. My renewal does not ask who my employer is - only condition for renewal...how will they know if my ex is not meeting the employment requirement?
3. my daughter is looking for an apprenticeship but she is currently only partially employed. would she be at risk of losing her permit c or even expulsion from switzerland?
4. my son is partially employed due to coronavirus restrictions. is he at risk?

I'll be happy to see my ex-wife go but I would like to help my kids stay if possible - how could i do that if needed?
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Old 22.11.2020, 22:13
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Re: permit c revocation?

Permit C is not "renewed", you only have to get a new physical card every so often. A downgrade from C to B can happen anytime the condition for a downgrade is given. So far your ex-wife does not seem to meet any of the conditions mentioned in the law: Art. 63 FNIA.https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a63
A downgrade is thus not expected. Also, there is no "lucrative employment" requirement.
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Old 22.11.2020, 22:45
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Permit C is not "renewed", you only have to get a new physical card every so often. A downgrade from C to B can happen anytime the condition for a downgrade is given. So far your ex-wife does not seem to meet any of the conditions mentioned in the law: Art. 63 FNIA.https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a63
A downgrade is thus not expected. Also, there is no "lucrative employment" requirement.
Think he's most likely referring to this part of the legislation.

" Art. 58a Integration criteria
1 When assessing integration, the competent authority shall take the following criteria into account:

a. respect for public safety, security and order;
b. respect for the values of the Federal Constitution;
c. language skills; and
d. participation in working life or efforts to acquire an education.

2 Due account shall be taken of the situation of persons who because of disability or illness or other important personal circumstances are unable to meet or have difficulty meeting the integration criteria referred to in paragraph 1 letters c and d.

3 The Federal Council shall determine which language skills are required when granting or renewing a permit."
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Old 23.11.2020, 10:03
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Think he's most likely referring to this part of the legislation.

" Art. 58a Integration criteria
Which is about meeting conditions to be granted a C permit, as ASITUS says, none of which is not applicable to the "renewal" process,
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Old 23.11.2020, 10:32
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Which is about meeting conditions to be granted a C permit, as ASITUS says, none of which is not applicable to the "renewal" process,
Hm.

"3 The Federal Council shall determine which language skills are required when granting or renewing a permit."
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Old 23.11.2020, 10:44
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Hm.

"3 The Federal Council shall determine which language skills are required when granting or renewing a permit."
C is not renewed

Art. 34 FNIA
Quote:
1 The permanent residence permit is granted for an unlimited duration and without conditions.
[...]
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Old 23.11.2020, 11:06
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Re: permit c revocation?

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C is not renewed

Art. 34 FNIA
Then that's contradicting itself. It can't be without conditions and yet require language proficiency when renewing it.

Art. 63 also says

"The permanent residence permit may be revoked and replaced by a residence permit if the residence criteria referred to in Article 58a have not been met."

So to me there are now definitely conditions that have to be met to keep your C permit.
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Old 23.11.2020, 11:21
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Then that's contradicting itself. It can't be without conditions and yet require language proficiency when renewing it.

Art. 63 also says

"The permanent residence permit may be revoked and replaced by a residence permit if the residence criteria referred to in Article 58a have not been met."

So to me there are now definitely conditions that have to be met to keep your C permit.
This is correct.

As part of the new integration requirements in place since 01.01.2019, the letter of the law certainly suggests integration requirements are to be checked even for C permit control deadline extensions (to not say renewals). How severely this is applied of course depends on cantonal practices.

In any case 'participation in working life or efforts to acquire an education' boils down to not being on cantonal/communal social aid, which was also a condition for revoking a C permit in the old foreigners law (except those holding a C permit for more than 15 years).
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Old 23.11.2020, 11:24
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Re: permit c revocation?

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This is correct.

As part of the new integration requirements in place since 01.01.2019, the letter of the law certainly suggests integration requirements are to be checked even for C permit control deadline extensions (to not say renewals). How severely this is applied of course depends on cantonal practices.

Friend of mine (non EU) has to extend his C permit and was asked to show a language certificate (Kanton Zug).
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Old 23.11.2020, 11:25
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Then that's contradicting itself. It can't be without conditions and yet require language proficiency when renewing it.
There is no explicit language requirement. Once you have C you have C. As long you have no issues with the authorities nobody cares how bad your grasp of the local language is. It is only an issue if you are unable to follow government instructions: specially regarding with school if you have kids. This even applies if you are from one of the language exempt countries.
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:01
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Re: permit c revocation?

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There is no explicit language requirement. Once you have C you have C. As long you have no issues with the authorities nobody cares how bad your grasp of the local language is. It is only an issue if you are unable to follow government instructions: specially regarding with school if you have kids. This even applies if you are from one of the language exempt countries.
Will probably find out in a few years when we have to get our C's redone.
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:02
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Will probably find out in a few years when we have to get our C's redone.
We just had ours reissued last month, none of the integration requirements were requested.

To my mind, the previously quoted parts about the conditions under which a C permit can be revoked are crystal clear, so I don't see any ambiguity at all.
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:05
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Re: permit c revocation?

Maybe some Kantons are more stringent than others?


My boss, EU, is still waiting for his C permit. So far only loads of questions and no permit. Seems some Kantons (this is also Kanton Zug) want to make it more difficult to get a C permit.
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:29
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Maybe some Kantons are more stringent than others?


My boss, EU, is still waiting for his C permit. So far only loads of questions and no permit. Seems some Kantons (this is also Kanton Zug) want to make it more difficult to get a C permit.
Out of curiosity, is he from one of the below binding settlement agreement countries?

Germany, France, Italy, Austria, Liechtenstein, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Denmark

(presume not from Liechtenstein as you mention he is EU)
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:30
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Re: permit c revocation?

He is, yes
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:39
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Re: permit c revocation?

In case anyone wanted to have a read on SEM guidance for C permit revocations/downgrades:

(only available in D/F/I)

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...erbereich.html

Points:

8.3.2 (revocation) and 8.3.3 (downgrade)

Table of examples justifying a downgrade to B point 8.3.3.3
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Old 23.11.2020, 13:42
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Re: permit c revocation?

Your kids should be fine. They should apply for citizenship though as soon as they are eligible!

How has your ex not found any kind of job in 4 years
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Old 23.11.2020, 14:06
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Re: permit c revocation?

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In case anyone wanted to have a read on SEM guidance for C permit revocations/downgrades:

(only available in D/F/I)

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...erbereich.html

Points:

8.3.2 (revocation) and 8.3.3 (downgrade)

Table of examples justifying a downgrade to B point 8.3.3.3

Can't find 8.3.2, 8.3.3 or 8.3.3.3 from your link
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Old 23.11.2020, 14:10
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Can't find 8.3.2, 8.3.3 or 8.3.3.3 from your link
You need to download the guidance document under:

I. Auslšnderbereich (PDF, 2 MB, 01.11.2019)
(Stand 1. November 2019)
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Old 23.11.2020, 14:17
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Re: permit c revocation?

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Can't find 8.3.2, 8.3.3 or 8.3.3.3 from your link
It's the same as the English version previously quoted/linked in the first reply by ASITUS, but just with a little more detail.
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