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  #41  
Old 01.05.2021, 08:57
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Interestingly the average handworker in CH does not earn 16,000 a month, so again do you have a link for a min of 100 an hour salary for employees.
Of course they don't earn that. But their employers charge it. Often including travelling time. When one of our blinds stopped working (the motor blew out), two French guys took 30 minutes to replace the motor. Total cost 200CHF labour, 100CHF for the motor. The labour did incude travel costs.

This is normal.

The employees get about 25-30CHF per hours.
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  #42  
Old 01.05.2021, 09:00
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Of course they don't earn that. But their employers charge it. Often including travelling time. When one of our blinds stopped working (the motor blew out), two French guys took 30 minutes to replace the motor. Total cost 200CHF labour, 100CHF for the motor. The labour did incude travel costs.

This is normal.

The employees get about 25-30CHF per hours.
The employer in France has to pay 42% social costs, so net cost of employment is the same if you take your optimistic no's.
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  #43  
Old 01.05.2021, 10:06
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Just a bit of a rant, really, as I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be done about it, but a stupid by-product of Brexit just bit us. If anyone's found a way round this problem then please do share it.

Just across the border from us, in Ch‚tel, France, are quite a number of Brits who run building-related businesses. In the past there was never a problem for any of them to do odd bits of work in CH, they just needed to register with the Commune and inform them of dates. There's a set maximum number of says they could work per year, but within that it's just a formality.

So anyway, we'd just arranged with one such, who's a professional tiler, to re-do one of our bathrooms - got quite far along the planning process and he'd been over twice to measure up and discuss things, so he then filled in and submitted the required forms and...

he's not allowed to work in CH. If he was French or other EU it would be fine; if he was UK-resident it would be fine, but a Brit living in France falls between the two, covered by neither of the bilateral agreements between the EU and the UK.

Grrrr, bloody annoying, bloody stupid. Now I've got to start all over again with Swiss contractors, further away and less open to me doing part of the work with them, also almost certainly more expensive.
Thank you for highlighting this loophole. As the BiE representative in Switzerland and founder member of the Cross-Border Services Group, I have read all the agreements many times but somehow missed the key words hidden away in the annex to the services mobility agreement:

a national of the United Kingdom who is established in the territory of the United Kingdom

At our last meeting with the embassy they seemed to be hopping mad about cross-border services (or lack thereof) and I will raise it again at our next meeting. It also looks like one that we in the Cross-Border Services group need to look at in more detail.

In concrete terms, it means that our CBS team member living in the UK can come to Switzerland to provide language services for up to 90 days, but the one living in Rome can't. Exactly the same nationality, exactly the same profession, different treatment based solely on where they live.

I don't know if I'm allowed to put our Facebook and Twitter details on here, but if anyone is affected by being unable to provide cross-border services that they were previously able to provide, please feel free to contact me.

ETA: there may be a positive loophole (although I don't know if it's viable for your chap in particular). In the EU-CH free movement agreement, employees of "person providing services" (presumably legal persons i.e. companies) can be posted to CH for up to 90 days irrespective of nationality. This means it might be possible for British service providers in the EU to continue providing services if they incorporate/set up a limited company. Either way, different individuals with the same nationality are treated differently in the UK-CH services mobility agreement (and it seems CH nationals living outside CH fall into the same issue regarding work in the UK).
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  #44  
Old 01.05.2021, 10:28
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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The employer in France has to pay 42% social costs, so net cost of employment is the same if you take your optimistic no's.
Same in Italy.

For an employer, paying CHF 6k/month in Switzerland is cheaper than EUR 3k/month in Italy.

Tom
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  #45  
Old 01.05.2021, 10:47
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

Iím curious. Do other non-EU nationals enjoy the same rights? Can a Canadian come here from Canada for 90 days to teach English? (Ignoring Covid rules).
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  #46  
Old 01.05.2021, 11:24
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Iím curious. Do other non-EU nationals enjoy the same rights? Can a Canadian come here from Canada for 90 days to teach English? (Ignoring Covid rules).
I think probably not.

The unique situation with UK citizens is that no country has ever left the EU before so any comparisons are pointless. People have built lives, livelihoods and businesses based on a set of rules that they had a legitimate expectation would continue to apply, and the goalposts have been moved overnight to their significant disadvantage.

It's easy to be given rights and add to what you can do; it's a far different thing to have rights removed (in most cases without any say in the matter). In fact, in any other situation, most people and governments would create a huge outcry at another government stripping its population of their rights.
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  #47  
Old 01.05.2021, 13:15
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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It is going to be a real problem for all the winter season staff, be they in bars, restaurants, ski school, ch‚let work, etc. I have already seen adverts for next December for English speakers who already live in EU and have necessary paperwork/permits.
These would all normally be able to work on a G permit if living over the border, or an L permit if in CH, so it's a completely different situation and should not be affected in the same way. Similarly anyone resident in the UK is still able to do casual work in CH under the UK-CH bilateral agreement.

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Could always risk employing them cash in hand or "black" as they say here.
Not sure what difference you think that would make. Whether or not they're officially declaring their income to French authorities either personally or through their French business has no bearing whatsoever on whether the Swiss authorities would allow them to work here.

The Risk is that a neighbour would report foreign workers, which would be investigated by the Commune, and then we'd be in all sorts of trouble.

Last edited by Guest; 01.05.2021 at 13:33.
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  #48  
Old 01.05.2021, 13:28
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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ETA: there may be a positive loophole (although I don't know if it's viable for your chap in particular). In the EU-CH free movement agreement, employees of "person providing services" (presumably legal persons i.e. companies) can be posted to CH for up to 90 days irrespective of nationality. This means it might be possible for British service providers in the EU to continue providing services if they incorporate/set up a limited company.
Thanks, that sounds like it might provide a way out. He is registered as an artisan business in France, although not a limited company so whether it could apply or not I don't know, but if you could send me some links to the laws/agreements that would be great.
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  #49  
Old 01.05.2021, 15:44
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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Thanks, that sounds like it might provide a way out. He is registered as an artisan business in France, although not a limited company so whether it could apply or not I don't know, but if you could send me some links to the laws/agreements that would be great.
CH-EU FMOPA:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...801%29:EN:HTML

Annex I Article 17, particularly section (b) ii:

Quote:
IV. PROVISION OF SERVICES

Article 17

Persons providing services

With regard to the provision of services, the following shall be prohibited under Article 5 of this Agreement:

(a) any restriction on the cross-frontier provision of services in the territory of a Contracting Party not exceeding 90 days of actual work per calendar year;

(b) any restriction on the right of entry and residence in the cases covered by Article 5(2) of this Agreement concerning:

(i) persons providing services who are nationals of the Member States of the European Community or Switzerland and are established in the territory of a Contracting Party other than that of the person receiving services;

(ii) employees, irrespective of their nationality, of persons providing services, who are integrated into one Contracting Party's regular labour market and posted for the provision of a service in the territory of another Contracting Party without prejudice to Article 1.

Nobody has yet answered specifically whether a one-person ltd co. is covered, but I don't see why not because the whole point of incorporating is to separate legal from natural person. Also thought I saw somewhere that the employee had to have been employed by the co. for 12 months but it's not in the agreement there, and I don't see how it would work e.g. for a company that employed a US lawyer specifically to advise it's other EU companies on US law. It may be that the employee has to have lived in the country for 12 months (= integrated into the labour market), which would make more sense. Sorry, don't have time to go hunting that one.

Obviously the decision to incorporate is bigger than just one-off access to one market, but could potentially solve some of the cross-border issues.

The bigger issue with your (supplier's) situation is that some UK citizens are more equal than others.
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  #50  
Old 01.05.2021, 15:49
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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I wonder if, when on my death bed I would wish I had worked past 52, I can't see it on the eve of my 59th birthday
Apparently retirement can cause cognitive decline. https://theconversation.com/retiring...e-brain-145603

I love chess.

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Old 01.05.2021, 15:51
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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How rich do you have to be to retire here as a 3rd country person? Anyone know?
Very.
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  #52  
Old 01.05.2021, 16:54
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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CH-EU FMOPA:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...801%29:EN:HTML

Annex I Article 17, particularly section (b) ii:




Nobody has yet answered specifically whether a one-person ltd co. is covered, but I don't see why not because the whole point of incorporating is to separate legal from natural person. Also thought I saw somewhere that the employee had to have been employed by the co. for 12 months but it's not in the agreement there, and I don't see how it would work e.g. for a company that employed a US lawyer specifically to advise it's other EU companies on US law. It may be that the employee has to have lived in the country for 12 months (= integrated into the labour market), which would make more sense. Sorry, don't have time to go hunting that one.

Obviously the decision to incorporate is bigger than just one-off access to one market, but could potentially solve some of the cross-border issues.

The bigger issue with your (supplier's) situation is that some UK citizens are more equal than others.
A Ltd company is the same as any other Ltd company in the UK regardless of the no of shareholders. It's not anything like an einslefirma which is just self employed.
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  #53  
Old 01.05.2021, 17:34
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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A Ltd company is the same as any other Ltd company in the UK regardless of the no of shareholders. It's not anything like an einslefirma which is just self employed.
Quite. However with the poor drafting we've seen (and not trusting anyone on Brexit), it wouldn't surprise me either that someone would challenge it as "oh, incorporating is circumventing the intention" or "well it doesn't matter that the drafting is poor because you can always incorporate".
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  #54  
Old 01.05.2021, 22:43
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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These would all normally be able to work on a G permit if living over the border, or an L permit if in CH, so it's a completely different situation and should not be affected in the same way. Similarly anyone resident in the UK is still able to do casual work in CH under the UK-CH bilateral agreement.
yes, sorry- was pointing out the difficulties for French and other EU ski resorts, not CH.
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