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Old 30.04.2021, 13:47
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Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work in CH

Just a bit of a rant, really, as I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be done about it, but a stupid by-product of Brexit just bit us. If anyone's found a way round this problem then please do share it.

Just across the border from us, in Châtel, France, are quite a number of Brits who run building-related businesses. In the past there was never a problem for any of them to do odd bits of work in CH, they just needed to register with the Commune and inform them of dates. There's a set maximum number of says they could work per year, but within that it's just a formality.

So anyway, we'd just arranged with one such, who's a professional tiler, to re-do one of our bathrooms - got quite far along the planning process and he'd been over twice to measure up and discuss things, so he then filled in and submitted the required forms and...

he's not allowed to work in CH. If he was French or other EU it would be fine; if he was UK-resident it would be fine, but a Brit living in France falls between the two, covered by neither of the bilateral agreements between the EU and the UK.

Grrrr, bloody annoying, bloody stupid. Now I've got to start all over again with Swiss contractors, further away and less open to me doing part of the work with them, also almost certainly more expensive.
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  #2  
Old 30.04.2021, 14:18
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

Perhaps you should share that story with the daily mail.
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Old 30.04.2021, 14:22
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

There is a new services agreement for professionals which allows 90 days of work in Switzerland, but I haven’t been able to find out who qualifies for this!
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Old 30.04.2021, 14:34
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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There is a new services agreement for professionals which allows 90 days of work in Switzerland, but I haven’t been able to find out who qualifies for this!
Quote:

The following categories of persons can benefit from the agreement:

Persons seconded by companies based in the UK, irrespective of their nationality. For third-country nationals and EU/EFTA nationals who are posted to Switzerland from the UK for the purpose of cross-border services, the notification procedure is only applicable if they were already permanently (i.e. for at least 12 months) admitted to the regular UK labour market before their secondments to Switzerland.

Self-employed cross-border service providers with company headquarters in the UK who are UK citizens.

This agreement also applies to service providers who are covered by the Swiss-UK Citizens' Rights Agreement.
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...it/uk/faq.html
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Old 30.04.2021, 15:31
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

It is going to be a real problem for all the winter season staff, be they in bars, restaurants, ski school, châlet work, etc. I have already seen adverts for next December for English speakers who already live in EU and have necessary paperwork/permits.

BTW, French artisans, be they plumbers, carpenters, etc- cannot work in Switzerland unless they register and agree not to undercut wages.
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Old 30.04.2021, 15:44
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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BTW, French artisans, be they plumbers, carpenters, etc- cannot work in Switzerland unless they register and agree not to undercut wages.
Do you have a link? I was only aware of the need to register a Swiss branch if working in CH for less than 90 days a year or nothing at all below 8 days a year.
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Old 30.04.2021, 19:22
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

That sucks Ace1 I'd be annoyed in that situation too. However, maybe the thread title can be changed to something more accurate that may not mislead or alarm people? For example:

"Brexit consequence: Brits who are resident outside of Switzerland unable to do casual work in CH without permission."

Otherwise, reading the thread title suggests that Brits cannot work in Switzerland, in general, which is a little alarming in a topic dedicated to permits and visas and will cause a lot of people to click this thread unnecessarily.
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Old 30.04.2021, 19:45
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

My bet goes to Gemainde that is misinformed. I'd challange them to require to point where that comes from and ask to call Amt in Bern for clarification - what is called "open official case" on most communities.

What is the difference when Brit comes down to work in CH going over France and has there holiday apartment , took few days off in FR and perhaps is required to register there when staying more than 30-days , than decided to do some work for couple weeks in CH - why would his stay in FR impact his ability to work in CH ?

it be different story for cross-border commuters of course ..
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Old 30.04.2021, 20:11
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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"Brexit consequence: Brits who are resident outside of Switzerland unable to do casual work in CH without permission."
Brits need a work Visa or residents permit to work in most countries outside the UK, how is this a surprise to you?
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Old 30.04.2021, 20:20
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Brits need a work Visa or residents permit to work in most countries outside the UK, how is this a surprise to you?
I thought the ‘majority’ of the British were opposed to the EU and its principle of free movement? Living in a second country and working in a third stinks of free movement.

You reap what you sow.
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Old 30.04.2021, 20:23
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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I thought the ‘majority’ of the British were opposed to the EU and its principle of free movement? Living in a second country and working in a third stinks of free movement.

You reap what you sow.
Indeed, I left the UK to work in CH long before free movement. Totally unnecessary, anyone with talent can work where they want.
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Old 30.04.2021, 20:27
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Indeed, I left the UK to work in CH long before free movement. Totally unnecessary, anyone with talent can work where they want.
Also a sense of personal responsibility. Making a customer lose time by offering services while not having idea if it's possible to deliver is........I cannot think about any kind word. Just like an adult version of the dog ate my homework.
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Old 30.04.2021, 20:39
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Indeed, I left the UK to work in CH long before free movement. Totally unnecessary, anyone with talent can work where they want.
And retire whenever they want, which is especially important in CH.
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Old 01.05.2021, 10:06
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brits unable to work in CH

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Just a bit of a rant, really, as I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be done about it, but a stupid by-product of Brexit just bit us. If anyone's found a way round this problem then please do share it.

Just across the border from us, in Châtel, France, are quite a number of Brits who run building-related businesses. In the past there was never a problem for any of them to do odd bits of work in CH, they just needed to register with the Commune and inform them of dates. There's a set maximum number of says they could work per year, but within that it's just a formality.

So anyway, we'd just arranged with one such, who's a professional tiler, to re-do one of our bathrooms - got quite far along the planning process and he'd been over twice to measure up and discuss things, so he then filled in and submitted the required forms and...

he's not allowed to work in CH. If he was French or other EU it would be fine; if he was UK-resident it would be fine, but a Brit living in France falls between the two, covered by neither of the bilateral agreements between the EU and the UK.

Grrrr, bloody annoying, bloody stupid. Now I've got to start all over again with Swiss contractors, further away and less open to me doing part of the work with them, also almost certainly more expensive.
Thank you for highlighting this loophole. As the BiE representative in Switzerland and founder member of the Cross-Border Services Group, I have read all the agreements many times but somehow missed the key words hidden away in the annex to the services mobility agreement:

a national of the United Kingdom who is established in the territory of the United Kingdom

At our last meeting with the embassy they seemed to be hopping mad about cross-border services (or lack thereof) and I will raise it again at our next meeting. It also looks like one that we in the Cross-Border Services group need to look at in more detail.

In concrete terms, it means that our CBS team member living in the UK can come to Switzerland to provide language services for up to 90 days, but the one living in Rome can't. Exactly the same nationality, exactly the same profession, different treatment based solely on where they live.

I don't know if I'm allowed to put our Facebook and Twitter details on here, but if anyone is affected by being unable to provide cross-border services that they were previously able to provide, please feel free to contact me.

ETA: there may be a positive loophole (although I don't know if it's viable for your chap in particular). In the EU-CH free movement agreement, employees of "person providing services" (presumably legal persons i.e. companies) can be posted to CH for up to 90 days irrespective of nationality. This means it might be possible for British service providers in the EU to continue providing services if they incorporate/set up a limited company. Either way, different individuals with the same nationality are treated differently in the UK-CH services mobility agreement (and it seems CH nationals living outside CH fall into the same issue regarding work in the UK).
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Last edited by eng_ch; 01.05.2021 at 11:11.
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Old 01.05.2021, 13:28
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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ETA: there may be a positive loophole (although I don't know if it's viable for your chap in particular). In the EU-CH free movement agreement, employees of "person providing services" (presumably legal persons i.e. companies) can be posted to CH for up to 90 days irrespective of nationality. This means it might be possible for British service providers in the EU to continue providing services if they incorporate/set up a limited company.
Thanks, that sounds like it might provide a way out. He is registered as an artisan business in France, although not a limited company so whether it could apply or not I don't know, but if you could send me some links to the laws/agreements that would be great.
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Old 01.05.2021, 15:44
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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Thanks, that sounds like it might provide a way out. He is registered as an artisan business in France, although not a limited company so whether it could apply or not I don't know, but if you could send me some links to the laws/agreements that would be great.
CH-EU FMOPA:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...801%29:EN:HTML

Annex I Article 17, particularly section (b) ii:

Quote:
IV. PROVISION OF SERVICES

Article 17

Persons providing services

With regard to the provision of services, the following shall be prohibited under Article 5 of this Agreement:

(a) any restriction on the cross-frontier provision of services in the territory of a Contracting Party not exceeding 90 days of actual work per calendar year;

(b) any restriction on the right of entry and residence in the cases covered by Article 5(2) of this Agreement concerning:

(i) persons providing services who are nationals of the Member States of the European Community or Switzerland and are established in the territory of a Contracting Party other than that of the person receiving services;

(ii) employees, irrespective of their nationality, of persons providing services, who are integrated into one Contracting Party's regular labour market and posted for the provision of a service in the territory of another Contracting Party without prejudice to Article 1.

Nobody has yet answered specifically whether a one-person ltd co. is covered, but I don't see why not because the whole point of incorporating is to separate legal from natural person. Also thought I saw somewhere that the employee had to have been employed by the co. for 12 months but it's not in the agreement there, and I don't see how it would work e.g. for a company that employed a US lawyer specifically to advise it's other EU companies on US law. It may be that the employee has to have lived in the country for 12 months (= integrated into the labour market), which would make more sense. Sorry, don't have time to go hunting that one.

Obviously the decision to incorporate is bigger than just one-off access to one market, but could potentially solve some of the cross-border issues.

The bigger issue with your (supplier's) situation is that some UK citizens are more equal than others.
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Old 01.05.2021, 16:54
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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CH-EU FMOPA:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ...801%29:EN:HTML

Annex I Article 17, particularly section (b) ii:




Nobody has yet answered specifically whether a one-person ltd co. is covered, but I don't see why not because the whole point of incorporating is to separate legal from natural person. Also thought I saw somewhere that the employee had to have been employed by the co. for 12 months but it's not in the agreement there, and I don't see how it would work e.g. for a company that employed a US lawyer specifically to advise it's other EU companies on US law. It may be that the employee has to have lived in the country for 12 months (= integrated into the labour market), which would make more sense. Sorry, don't have time to go hunting that one.

Obviously the decision to incorporate is bigger than just one-off access to one market, but could potentially solve some of the cross-border issues.

The bigger issue with your (supplier's) situation is that some UK citizens are more equal than others.
A Ltd company is the same as any other Ltd company in the UK regardless of the no of shareholders. It's not anything like an einslefirma which is just self employed.
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Old 01.05.2021, 17:34
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Re: Brexit consequence, Brit artisans resident and registered in EU unable to work i

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A Ltd company is the same as any other Ltd company in the UK regardless of the no of shareholders. It's not anything like an einslefirma which is just self employed.
Quite. However with the poor drafting we've seen (and not trusting anyone on Brexit), it wouldn't surprise me either that someone would challenge it as "oh, incorporating is circumventing the intention" or "well it doesn't matter that the drafting is poor because you can always incorporate".
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