Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:25
Island Monkey's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wallis
Posts: 6,488
Groaned at 114 Times in 79 Posts
Thanked 7,242 Times in 3,303 Posts
Island Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Monkey has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
That's not true.

So say one of the individually was an asylum-seeker, who went to work at McDonalds.

Initially, they're granted their F-permit for 12 months. Then they transition to a B-permit.

After 5 years, they can actually apply for a C permit.
After 5 years in academia as a Canadian/American etc, you can't.
That is not the same. An asylum seeker came here, was allowed to stay, then got a job so they were not reliant on benefits. They didn’t apply for a permit from eg Canada to come and work at McDonalds.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Island Monkey for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:31
kngavl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bärn
Posts: 750
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 826 Times in 341 Posts
kngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
That is not the same. An asylum seeker came here, was allowed to stay, then got a job so they were not reliant on benefits. They didn’t apply for a permit from eg Canada to come and work at McDonalds.
If you come here for a job, you lose that job after 6 months, go on the RAV they will ask you to apply everywhere including at McDonalds, or COOP or whatever. I know because I and my colleagues been asked to by them.

In doing so, you'll get your B, continue to live here and still come out ahead of an academic permit-wise.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:35
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,255
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,936 Times in 2,796 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
During my first 3 years here I had no income, and on top of that didn't have the right to work more than 20%.
What?

Why come to Switzerland without a SNF/FNS grant in first place?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:38
kngavl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bärn
Posts: 750
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 826 Times in 341 Posts
kngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
What?

Why come to Switzerland without a SNF/FNS grant in first place?
Hah, because I did my masters here and 800 francs a semester in an expensive country is still cheaper than 20000 francs a semester in a cheaper country.

But I did have a few friends who came from India and South America during their PhD and were payed stipends based on Indian and South American PhD salaries. For them, life was hard.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank kngavl for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:51
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,255
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,936 Times in 2,796 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
Hah, because I did my masters here and 800 francs a semester in an expensive country is still cheaper than 20000 francs a semester in a cheaper country.

But I did have a few friends who came from India and South America during their PhD and were payed stipends based on Indian and South American PhD salaries. For them, life was hard.
That is a personal choice to live without or very low income during the PhD. Not something wrong with Swiss immigration laws.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:51
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,952
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,019 Times in 8,000 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

not sure what the problem is. students don't get c permits. want a c permit? get a real job. don't like the rules? change the law.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 28.05.2021, 13:58
kngavl's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bärn
Posts: 750
Groaned at 8 Times in 8 Posts
Thanked 826 Times in 341 Posts
kngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond reputekngavl has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
That is a personal choice to live without or very low income during the PhD. Not something wrong with Swiss immigration laws.
Never said it was, but it didn't make it any easier for them. It's actually a broader discussion because they were on SNF projects, but without the SNF matching their salaries to local PhD's. There are discussions about changing this.

Quote:
View Post
not sure what the problem is. students don't get c permits. want a c permit? get a real job. don't like the rules? change the law.
Postdocs/Researchers/Entrepreneurs in science like the OP are not students, they just have student permits.

They also have no right to change the law or launch popular referendums, they are not citizens, they can't vote.

If you're interested in how to change the law you can follow this link:
https://www.ch.ch/en/demokratie/poli...federal-level/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank kngavl for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:09
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Nyon
Posts: 6,563
Groaned at 390 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 9,159 Times in 4,281 Posts
bowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond reputebowlie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Around here, refugees can’t get a job at Mc-dodo. They don’t have the language skills required.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:09
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Vaud
Posts: 120
Groaned at 21 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 59 Times in 34 Posts
AndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeable
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
There is no way a non-EU person would get a permit to work in McDonalds
I know Non-EU people who initially got a permit through family reunification with a partner but where allowed to keep it when they broke up (before 5 years) and got it renewed, and converted into a C, with the equivalent of a job at McDonalds.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:11
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Vaud
Posts: 120
Groaned at 21 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 59 Times in 34 Posts
AndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeable
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
not sure what the problem is. students don't get c permits. want a c permit? get a real job. don't like the rules? change the law.
The problem is, I'm not a student, I've never been a student in Switzerland, I was an academic researcher for 3.5 years and have had a "real job" in industry for 3 years, but the system considers me a student.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank AndersonMD for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:35
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,255
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,936 Times in 2,796 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
The problem is, I'm not a student, I've never been a student in Switzerland, I was an academic researcher for 3.5 years and have had a "real job" in industry for 3 years, but the system considers me a student.
So, could it be that the problem is the employer that doesn't want to the effort of hiring a 3rd country national and used the post-doc/student visa as loophole?

I guess by the system you mean the university system, I understand now. There's people who decides which kind of contract is offered to each employee. The arrangement could be convenient for a professor, but it's clear you're no happy with it. Universities hire lots of people as workers. During uni times, we joked the guy in charge of the field equipment had better contract terms.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 28.05.2021, 14:49
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 32,504
Groaned at 2,578 Times in 1,840 Posts
Thanked 39,645 Times in 18,685 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
The OP doesn’t appear to very integrated. Dealing with and putting up with bureaucracy is a particular Swiss attribute.
There is far les bureaucracy here than in any of the neighboring countries.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 28.05.2021, 15:03
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Vaud
Posts: 120
Groaned at 21 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 59 Times in 34 Posts
AndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeableAndersonMD is considered knowledgeable
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
So, could it be that the problem is the employer that doesn't want to the effort of hiring a 3rd country national and used the post-doc/student visa as loophole?

I guess by the system you mean the university system, I understand now. There's people who decides which kind of contract is offered to each employee. The arrangement could be convenient for a professor, but it's clear you're no happy with it. Universities hire lots of people as workers. During uni times, we joked the guy in charge of the field equipment had better contract terms.
No, my employer did go through the proper steps to hire me, the problem was administration said that because my wife was still a student (actually a post doc at this point running a startup company), but basically they said they would switch me from my formation B to a family regroupement B, and that there was no possible way I could get a quota B through my job as long as they had the option to give me a non-quota B. So here I am, still on a the equivalent of a formation B after 7 years and 3 years of permanent employment.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 28.05.2021, 16:24
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,255
Groaned at 72 Times in 67 Posts
Thanked 5,936 Times in 2,796 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
No, my employer did go through the proper steps to hire me, the problem was administration said that because my wife was still a student (actually a post doc at this point running a startup company), but basically they said they would switch me from my formation B to a family regroupement B, and that there was no possible way I could get a quota B through my job as long as they had the option to give me a non-quota B. So here I am, still on a the equivalent of a formation B after 7 years and 3 years of permanent employment.
Maybe it's a good idea to talk to a lawyer. Look for permanence de avocats de Vaud, they provide 30-40 min consultations for a few francs (20-40? that range). Perhaps something can be done. Anyway, an specialist knows more than random people on a BB
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 28.05.2021, 16:36
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,952
Groaned at 295 Times in 199 Posts
Thanked 19,019 Times in 8,000 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
The problem is, I'm not a student, I've never been a student in Switzerland, I was an academic researcher for 3.5 years and have had a "real job" in industry for 3 years, but the system considers me a student.
if the visa system considers you a student, you are a student for that purpose. at least you knew that before you went ahead. it's a choice. if i don't want to peer into peoples' mouths, i don't become a dentist.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 28.05.2021, 21:12
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 9,833
Groaned at 548 Times in 399 Posts
Thanked 13,198 Times in 6,851 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
Like married people who are punished compared to those who aren't.
You should get divorced immediately.
Quote:
View Post
All the grants through the university are advertised as being for start ups, in reality they are just EPFL grants. [..] also all IP developed while on these grants belongs to EPFL and not the company, which they will never sell back to the company so you have to pay them back in licencing fees forever. In that respect it's more like a loan than a grant like they advertise.
Excellent policy, there's zero reason to fund private research only to see the recipients walk away with the fruits. Get private funding if you don't like this.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Urs Max for this useful post:
This user groans at Urs Max for this post:
  #37  
Old 30.05.2021, 20:47
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 39
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 36 Times in 16 Posts
demos112 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
The problem is, I'm not a student, I've never been a student in Switzerland, I was an academic researcher for 3.5 years and have had a "real job" in industry for 3 years, but the system considers me a student.
You shouldn't waste your time explaining yourself to people whose suggestion is 'change the law.' They obviously have no idea what you are talking about. It is indeed a real problem which causes Switzerland to lose a lot of highly skilled people.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank demos112 for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 31.05.2021, 07:30
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,316
Groaned at 399 Times in 325 Posts
Thanked 17,303 Times in 8,753 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
It's not educated vs uneducated arrogance. Rather it is a clear divide in Switzerland that people who enter through the University system are punished compared to those who aren't. Like married people who are punished compared to those who aren't. Regarding the list, no idea how they came up with it, I guess they didn't check everyone's bank account, but it does include a lot of the high paid athletes, point is we clearly aren't a drain on the system. Regarding grants, finding out now that it's a bit misleading. All the grants through the university are advertised as being for start ups, in reality they are just EPFL grants. Everything purchased through grants belongs to EPFL and not the company, so everything now has to be purchased from EPFL by the company, also all IP developed while on these grants belongs to EPFL and not the company, which they will never sell back to the company so you have to pay them back in licencing fees forever. In that respect it's more like a loan than a grant like they advertise.
I can agree with you. The idea is you get your degree and you go back to your home country to apply all that knowledge...I personally find it counterproductive but perhaps the Swiss believe highly-qualified human resources are dispensable as they can always borrow from neighbouring countries.

I have a friend who was allowed to stay here after her postdoc studies only after she married an EU citizen (her back then fiancee). That was some years ago but I don't think much has changed. Also, note that all those years spent as a student don't count toward citizenship (EU or not).
I can't judge the system, it's what we found and have to work with. Consult an immigration lawyer, look for a full time job in a Swiss company and don't get angry. Good luck.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 31.05.2021, 07:39
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Langenthal
Posts: 97
Groaned at 5 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 73 Times in 45 Posts
Limegrass has earned some respectLimegrass has earned some respect
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
Also, note that all those years spent as a student don't count toward citizenship (EU or not).
Student years on a B count for citizenship, what they don’t count for is towards C permit unless followed by 2 years on working B/family reunion B immediately upon graduation.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Limegrass for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 31.05.2021, 08:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 11,316
Groaned at 399 Times in 325 Posts
Thanked 17,303 Times in 8,753 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Quote:
View Post
Student years on a B count for citizenship, what they don’t count for is towards C permit unless followed by 2 years on working B/family reunion B immediately upon graduation.
I stand corrected.
Unfortunately I know 3 people (EU) who were denied C permits even if they clearly met the criteria you stated, being told that their student B permits don't count in spite of being "followed by 2 years on working B/family reunion B immediately upon graduation". I would venture to guess some people in public admin either don't really know the legislation or try to pull as many obstacles (based on their mood/preconceptions etc) as they can with the hope that you give up. Better to consult an immigration specialist/lawyer and see what are the options.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
REALLY frustrated! Was told we would be receiving B permits and L permits showed up hopefulgenevaexpat Permits/visas/government 37 07.06.2021 20:35
rant rant rant (how do yo udeal with stress at work?) Squeeeez Complaints corner 26 02.11.2018 18:24
Are the quotas EU-8 stated for B residence permits or B working permits? annasimkovic Permits/visas/government 4 19.04.2013 12:10
Rant about closing the rant about assisted suicide so early Medea Fleecestealer Complaints corner 2 19.06.2012 09:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0