I have had a full time job in a swiss company for 3 years.

No, they put me on family reunification B after I finished my post doc, (to my wife who came to the country a year after me.) It doesn't make my years as a post doc count. You need to be put on a proper work permit. Which they won't do if you are married to someone who has a permit.

A friend of mine from Germany got the C permit after 5 years of studying for a PhD. He never worked outside of the university.

There are many countries where even a PhD counts as a job towards permanent residency like the Netherlands and Sweden. It's hard for us to get a C permit, but then I hear people coming here illegally and can easily get the permit and even go to university while they don't even fulfill the minimum qualification: https://www.int.uzh.ch/en/in/refugees.html

Isn't it better for the country to allow more qualified and educated people to stay?

Ahh yes, if only all us non-EU folk were as lucky as refugees who have been officially recognised by the government to be fleeing genocide, war crimes, sex trafficking etc. and given the opportunity to have an education... \s

Ahh yes, those poor refugees that have had to flee through numerous different safe countries before arriving to Switzerland only to have their asylum requests rejected yet their removal pronounced to be against human rights (minor children joker card handy) and so receive F permits and contrary to non-EU grads, immediately acquire working rights even though most are on social help. As a reminder approximately 1/3 of your taxes finance social help.

It’s a clever system this asylum track, as after 5 years on F permits they are able to apply for a B and subsequently a C. Meanwhile the educated non-EU grad is on a perpetual student status.

Careful what you wish for. B means quellensteuer and no one thinks about you anymore. C means THEY will exchange information will all countries they can for that 1-3 per thousand wealth tax.

Ok? But to my point above the pseudo-refugee has pushed their way into obtaining a durable legal status in Switzerland without a genuine claim for asylum yet the non-EU grad is still on a constant student status that doesn’t count for permanent residency.

Is the durable legal status in CH something worth to fight for? Think twice about it, maybe the optimal is just to be lost in limbo.

It depends on each individual pseudo-refugee or non-EU grad’s goals. The issue is the former population can fight for it and have a clear pathway to obtain it wheras the latter do not.

First of all you don’t get to define what a refugee is and rightly so that they should have priority since they are at risk and the non-EU grad can always go home without fear for their life.

Indeed that’s the role of the Confederation.

When the Confederation awards an F permit it means the asylum request is rejected but the removal of the person is not possible for technical reasons (cannot separate parents from children for example) hence the F permit loophole I outlayed above. These people are not at risk and unfortunately make up most of the population that are subject to the AsylG / LAsi and no these people should not have priority over non-EU grads.

A true refugee as recognized by the state obtains a B ‘refugee’ permit on the spot. These are the people that are truly at risk and should not be contested.

Could you post a link, please, setting out those percentages?

For anyone who's not familiar with the status of people who cannot be sent back to their native countries, here's a link setting out the meaning of an F permit:
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...orlaeufig.html

Permit F (provisionally admitted foreigners)
Temporarily admitted foreign nationals are persons who have been ordered to leave Switzerland and return to their native countries but in whose cases enforcement of this order has proved

• unlawful (violation of international law),
• unreasonable (genuine risk to the foreign national concerned) or
• impossible (for technical reasons of enforcement).

Their temporary admission is therefore an alternative measure. Temporary admission may be ordered for a duration of twelve months and be extended by the canton of residence for further twelve months at a time.

April 2021 YTD for Switzerland as a total, a whopping 80% of temporarily admitted persons do not have refugee status (F permit).

Out of these temporarily admitted persons without refugee status, 31% have been durably exploiting the loophole for over 7 years.

Only 45% of economically active F permit holders (18-65 year olds) are actually working. What about the rest you may ask, how do they pay for rent, health insurance, taxes? Hint: a system called social help. Unlike other foreigners under free movement or the AIG / LEI, being on social help is insufficient grounds to suspend their permits.

Worth noting 0 deportations have taken place for groups (families) and only 408 of individuals of a total of 53’835 asylum requests made.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/de/home...statistik.html

Many ‘F’ permit holders simply disappear. Those that don’t find it extremely difficult to find work. The most common track is to get an apprenticeship in one of the trades but that doesn’t guarantee permanent employees. In fact many businesses replace graduating apprentices with new ones.

Not all, in fact I’d say few, refugees are deadbeats. The ones that came for economic reasons do want to work.

That’s perfectly fine but in that case they are not refugees but economic migrants that disguise themselves as refugees to circumvent usual immigration channels.

I am sure non-EU grads want to work just as much.

I understand the frustration and unfairness that most non-EU grads feel, I am one myself. Let's not go down the road of pitting groups against each other and taking the frustrations of one situation and comparing it to the plight of people in another. Admittedly, I am not sure my initial sarcastic response helped with anything.

-Is the permit situation for non-EU grads tiring and painful? Most definitely yes.

-Do some people exploit the refugee system? Yes. Also, plenty of people flee
quite horrific situations and are legitimately in need of the refugee status.

-Should both systems be reformed in some way? I think yes. How? I don't know. For sure anyone just exploiting the social safety net should be kicked out.

I personally know a person who arrived here with his mother as a refugee (father killed) in the 90s after fleeing a genocide, he is high level manager at a large firm now after his schooling and university education in Switzerland. I also have heard stories of abuse of the social safety net from friends who work as employment councillors, people coming here and just doing enough for benefits and not more. (Point I am trying to make is against broad judgements.)

I would keep an eye out for a property, and see if you can buy something that really works for you. You have just missed the boat for the rural bargains in the French part, COVID has seen to that. It is a lot cheaper than renting and likely will be until global world economy gets back to high yield normal, could be 15 years.

If you could form a company, it could buy a property for business, and you then get to live in a live/work part for example, you might own all shares in the company but the one C permit holder a director, etc... It used to be possible to buy with a B permit. You used to be guaranteed a stream of B permits if you owned something you could live in. Would be interesting to know if this approach is still viable?

I liked the suggestion to get a lawyer, and pick one that you feel believes in your right to be here, not just your ability to fund their lifestyle. If anything, someone knowledgeable, impartial, ringing immigration to chat about your case in the 3rd person, someone they are allowed to talk to about it to.

Edit: HR normally do that bit if you are working for a big company.

@AndersonMD - I just noticed your profile says you're in Vaud. I have rarely read a happy or quick story about permits in that canton here on EF.

Any chance you can relocate to Canton Neuchatel? Posts on EF seem to indicate they're much more permit-friendly, particularly if you are well-educated and financially sound. They're also faster. Ok taxes might be higher but less hassle might be worth it??

We did now eventually get our non-student B permits (originally applied last November, they arrived last week). We will apply again for the C this fall, but it might be rejected again because you are supposed to be off of the student permits for 2 years before they retroactively count the time on student permits.

I was postdoc formation B 2014-2017 then family reunification 2018-2021 (working full time at a swiss company). My wife was PhD formation B 2015 - 2019 then startup formation B 2020-2021 (working full time at her company).

We have been happily settled and living in Vaud for almost 7 years now, it very much feels like home, we don't plan to leave to another canton. I'd say we are very happy in the Lausanne area, we love basically everything here with the exception of the governmental administration (e.g. permits).