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Old 27.05.2021, 21:40
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Still waiting for permits [rant]

I guess I just want to rant a bit, if you don't want to read a rant you can ignore this post.

I have asked for advice complained before here about us being rejected for C permits because of the insane system that considers post docs and start ups as students.

I had argued that for the last few years we have been generating dozens of jobs in Switzerland and bringing in many millions of dollars into the local economy.

We apply over and over again to get off student permits and get proper permits. My last one expired early March, I applied early February and I still have not received a new permit.

Yesterday I saw that we are on the list of "100 plus riches de moins de 40 ans" in Bilan. (100 richest people under 40 years in Switzerland.)

They still make it such a huge huge hassle for us to stay here, make jobs here, boost the economy here.

Meanwhile, I have an American friend who works gig economy as a private music tutor, barely pulls enough money to survive month to month. Arrived in Switzerland the same week as me 7 years ago, and was given his C permit a couple years ago because he didn't enter through the university system.

This is just madness how Switzerland treats educated people.

End rant
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Old 27.05.2021, 21:45
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Get yourself a professor position = immediate C-permit
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Old 27.05.2021, 22:46
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

The Educater You Rant, the Permit You Get
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Old 28.05.2021, 07:55
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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Yesterday I saw that we are on the list of "100 plus riches de moins de 40 ans" in Bilan. (100 richest people under 40 years in Switzerland.)
Educated vs non-educated arrogance aside, are you sure you are on this list together with the likes of Roger Federer?

Would not expect a top 100 ‘richest person under 40’ (whatever that means) to park in a blue spot for one and then rant over a 40.- parking ticket from reading
your previous posts.

Investors in your startup include publicly funded institutions (assuming EPFL from your location) so I am not sure your rant should rather be a note of gratitude.
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Old 28.05.2021, 08:35
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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Educated vs non-educated arrogance aside, are you sure you are on this list together with the likes of Roger Federer?

Would not expect a top 100 ‘richest person under 40’ (whatever that means) to park in a blue spot for one and then rant over a 40.- parking ticket from reading
your previous posts.

Investors in your startup include publicly funded institutions (assuming EPFL from your location) so I am not sure your rant should rather be a note of gratitude.
It's not educated vs uneducated arrogance. Rather it is a clear divide in Switzerland that people who enter through the University system are punished compared to those who aren't. Like married people who are punished compared to those who aren't. Regarding the list, no idea how they came up with it, I guess they didn't check everyone's bank account, but it does include a lot of the high paid athletes, point is we clearly aren't a drain on the system. Regarding grants, finding out now that it's a bit misleading. All the grants through the university are advertised as being for start ups, in reality they are just EPFL grants. Everything purchased through grants belongs to EPFL and not the company, so everything now has to be purchased from EPFL by the company, also all IP developed while on these grants belongs to EPFL and not the company, which they will never sell back to the company so you have to pay them back in licencing fees forever. In that respect it's more like a loan than a grant like they advertise.

Last edited by AndersonMD; 28.05.2021 at 09:32.
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Old 28.05.2021, 09:02
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

We are non-Eu, it took 12 years to be eligible for a C permit....


What's your question ?
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Old 28.05.2021, 09:22
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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We are non-Eu, it took 12 years to be eligible for a C permit....


What's your question ?
I posted about this yesterday, if the OP is an academic, like me, the law says that he will never be eligible for a C-permit in Switzerland.
Not after 12 years, not after 15 years, not after 25 years ... it's literally a hole in the system.

They has to become a professor, get some researcher position (which is not guaranteed to not be a student permit) or move out of academia. This is coupled with 1 year permits, scarce job supply etc...

Swiss tax dollars have funded our education, but has decided that the investment is not worthwhile.

That's an idiotic policy.
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Old 28.05.2021, 09:24
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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We are non-Eu, it took 12 years to be eligible for a C permit....


What's your question ?
Non-EU who did not enter with a student permit can get a C after 5 years through VINTA. So, if you had met the integration requirements you could have been eligible in 5.
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  #9  
Old 28.05.2021, 09:26
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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I posted about this yesterday, if the OP is an academic, like me, the law says that he will never be eligible for a C-permit in Switzerland.
Not after 12 years, not after 15 years, not after 25 years ... it's literally a hole in the system.

They has to become a professor, get some researcher position (which is not guaranteed to not be a student permit) or move out of academia. This is coupled with 1 year permits, scarce job supply etc...

Swiss tax dollars have funded our education, but has decided that the investment is not worthwhile.

That's an idiotic policy.
This is a major problem also, but not my case. I was an academic, but I have been working outside of academia for 3 1/2 years. I am still on a "student permit". [Well was, now I currently have no permit and have been waiting for the new one for 4 months now.]
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Old 28.05.2021, 10:41
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Personally, I get your rant. It feels like shit to finish a PhD and then find out about all this.

But, I don't see how CH can create privileges for the educated people. CH already has troubles with the EU. Guess what happens if CH tries to implement some public policy for EU workers based on education level. We do have 1st and 2nd class foreign workers: EU and 3rd countries but no one from the EU complains about it.

A year ago my permit took 5 months and it's not the first time. I don't care anymore. If I need to travel outside Schengen I just get a stamp on my passport to return to CH without a permit.
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Old 28.05.2021, 10:52
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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Personally, I get your rant. It feels like shit to finish a PhD and then find out about all this.
I also understand that the OP is frustrated, but should especially people in research positions be able to find it out before they start a PhD?
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Old 28.05.2021, 11:04
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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I also understand that the OP is frustrated, but should especially people in research positions be able to find it out before they start a PhD?
To be precise. I did not know before, but 1-2 years into the program by listening to stories of others.

Another important thing, is that people in a professorship path the first thing they do is do a postdoc out of Switzerland. The people that never leave their alma matter to work abroad and create links in other countries are more or less trapped forever in the corps intermediaire.

In simpler terms: cool, you finished a PhD in CH, go abroad 5-10 years, excel, publish, and develop a contact network. Then you become interesting for universities. If that sucks, the dark side is always hiring and will do anything to get you a permit: the industry
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Old 28.05.2021, 11:06
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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Personally, I get your rant. It feels like shit to finish a PhD and then find out about all this.

But, I don't see how CH can create privileges for the educated people. CH already has troubles with the EU. Guess what happens if CH tries to implement some public policy for EU workers based on education level. We do have 1st and 2nd class foreign workers: EU and 3rd countries but no one from the EU complains about it.
.
I think the point is less about educated people have more privileges, but rather people with education getting the same privileges.

Here's the situation:
Three equally qualified Canadians arrive. One decides to work at a bank, one decides to work at McDonalds, and the other decides to do their Masters degree.

5 years later, the bank worker gets his C permit through vinta; the McDonalds worker get his C permit through vinta and the student (now in their PhD) cannot apply for a C permit.

10 Years later, the bank worker applys and receives citizenship, the McDonald worker applys and receives citizenship, the student (now a researcher) still cannot even apply for a C permit.


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I also understand that the OP is frustrated, but should especially people in research positions be able to find it out before they start a PhD?
When I, and many of a my peers, moved here 10 years ago, the laws were different. I would have been eligible for naturalization in a few years, then the rules changed 2 years ago. Plus, you never know how long you'll end up staying in a country. I didn't think I'd last this long!
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Old 28.05.2021, 11:09
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

The OP doesn’t appear to very integrated. Dealing with and putting up with bureaucracy is a particular Swiss attribute.

Equally UN workers and cdl holders will not get permits (other than by retirement).

It is what it is.
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Old 28.05.2021, 12:00
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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To be precise. I did not know before, but 1-2 years into the program by listening to stories of others.

Another important thing, is that people in a professorship path the first thing they do is do a postdoc out of Switzerland. The people that never leave their alma matter to work abroad and create links in other countries are more or less trapped forever in the corps intermediaire.

In simpler terms: cool, you finished a PhD in CH, go abroad 5-10 years, excel, publish, and develop a contact network. Then you become interesting for universities. If that sucks, the dark side is always hiring and will do anything to get you a permit: the industry

To be clear, I did not do my PhD in Switzerland. I have never been a student in Switzerland. I had already completed my PhD in Canada when I came and took a position as a PostDoc.
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Old 28.05.2021, 12:07
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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I think the point is less about educated people have more privileges, but rather people with education getting the same privileges.

Here's the situation:
Three equally qualified Canadians arrive. One decides to work at a bank, one decides to work at McDonalds, and the other decides to do their Masters degree.

5 years later, the bank worker gets his C permit through vinta; the McDonalds worker get his C permit through vinta and the student (now in their PhD) cannot apply for a C permit.

10 Years later, the bank worker applys and receives citizenship, the McDonald worker applys and receives citizenship, the student (now a researcher) still cannot even apply for a C permit.




When I, and many of a my peers, moved here 10 years ago, the laws were different. I would have been eligible for naturalization in a few years, then the rules changed 2 years ago. Plus, you never know how long you'll end up staying in a country. I didn't think I'd last this long!

Yes that's exactly the frustration.

Even worse when you take away the "equally qualified".

1. One comes to work at McDonalds with no education or qualifications.
2. One comes to work at a bank after a Masters.
3. One comes to do a post doc after finishing the PhD then starts a company and wins a bunch of "grants" administered through the university.


5 years later 1 and 2 can get a C permit but 3 can't.

[Yes, I have seen the equivalent of 1. people sometimes come over on family reunification to a boyfriend/girlfriend, they break up, but government decides their McDonalds job is enough to support themselves, lets them stay and gives them a C permit.]
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Old 28.05.2021, 12:15
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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To be clear, I did not do my PhD in Switzerland. I have never been a student in Switzerland. I had already completed my PhD in Canada when I came and took a position as a PostDoc.
And still student permit? It sucks...but I'm remembering something now. The student with income B permit has benefits and bad things. The bad thing is obviously clear: the years don't count towards a C permit.

The not so clear benefit is that it gives professors/universities to hire anyone from around the world bypassing the criteria of first Swiss and EU workers that private companies have to comply with.

If PhDs, postdocs were regarded as workers and get a full B permit, we may not be even here in first place. From this perspective, the student with income B permit is a loophole for CH-EU bilaterals that don't want us here.
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Old 28.05.2021, 12:57
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

Wow the arrogance just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

First of all a non-EU cannot be hired into non-qualified jobs without preexisting working rights.

Also you forget that an entry-level McDonalds job at 100% in Switzerland likely pays more than any postdoc salary
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Old 28.05.2021, 13:01
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

There is no way a non-EU person would get a permit to work in McDonalds
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Old 28.05.2021, 13:20
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Re: Still waiting for permits [rant]

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Wow the arrogance just keeps getting bigger and bigger.

First of all a non-EU cannot be hired into non-qualified jobs without preexisting working rights.

Also you forget that an entry-level McDonalds job at 100% in Switzerland likely pays more than any postdoc salary
Glassdoor says the average salary of someone at McDonalds is 22 francs an hour.

During my first 3 years here I had no income, and on top of that didn't have the right to work more than 20%.

Then the next 4 years I had a PhD stipend, which was marginally higher than a salary at McDonalds, or Aldi, or Coop. Other friends had even lower salaries because they came on foreign grants.

The Postdoc pays well, but it's preceded by half a decade of earning basically nothing. Also, no one is working at McDonalds for 8 years.

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There is no way a non-EU person would get a permit to work in McDonalds
That's not true.

So say one of the individually was an asylum-seeker, who went to work at McDonalds.

Initially, they're granted their F-permit for 12 months. Then they transition to a B-permit.

After 5 years, they can actually apply for a C permit.
After 5 years in academia as a Canadian/American etc, you can't.
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