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Old 10.06.2021, 14:38
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non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

I came in Switzerland in 2011 a as post-doc. Three years later my permit was changed to L permit, i.e., into the quota system. Then two years later in 2016 I got my B permit. This summer I planned to change to C permit after living in Aargau for 10 years. But I was told that I can only apply for early C permit which has a higher requirement for the language.

From the Aargau migration website, it is clearly said that: Die Niederlassungsbewilligung kann erteilt werden, wenn die Ausländerin oder der Ausländer mindestens zehn Jahre mit einer Kurzaufenthalts- oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung in der Schweiz aufgehalten haben und sie während den letzten fünf Jahren ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung waren.

So I think my 2 years L permit in 2014 and 2015 should also be counted in the normal 10 years C permit, right?

Anyone has the similar experience?

Thank you all in the advance.
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  #2  
Old 10.06.2021, 15:26
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

If it's easy to do, could you post the exact response you received (remove any personal info)? I don't understand what you mean by "early C permit", which may be a gap in my awareness, or a gap in the translation.
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Old 10.06.2021, 16:05
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

I think your first 3 years don't count into that 10? Since you mentioned post-doc and I remember reading that academy is tricky for permit year counting - in short, it doesn't count or something.

So, if your L and B are for regular non academy employment, they count, but the first 3 might not. So you have only 7 years, and not 10, but it's obviously enough to apply for early permit.
Isn't language requirement like B1 or something?
That doesn't seem too much, especially if you're so long here already.

If my calculation is right, then you can either do higher level of language or wait for 3 more years.

To see which calculation is right, it's best to ask for the details those who told you that you can do only early C permit and not regular one.

@CliiniMuus I think early C is after 5 years of L/B.
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Old 10.06.2021, 16:06
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If it's easy to do, could you post the exact response you received (remove any personal info)? I don't understand what you mean by "early C permit", which may be a gap in my awareness, or a gap in the translation.
Thanks for your reply. Here is it:

In Ihrem Fall stellen wir fest, dass Sie am 27.11.2011 im Rahmen des Familiennachzuges eine Aufenthaltsbewilligung erhielten. Im August 2015 erhielten Sie und Ihr Ehemann eine Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung und seit August 2016 wiederum eine Aufenthaltsbewilligung. Seither sind Sie und Ihr Ehemann im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung VZAE. In Anbetracht des vorgenannten Sachverhaltes kann demnach eine Prüfung um Umwandlung Ihrer Aufenthaltsbewilligung VZAE eine Niederlassungsbewilligung VZAE frühestens am 1. August 2026 in Erwägung gezogen werden. Dies allerdings nur unter der Voraussetzung, dass die Integrationskriterien nach Art. 58a AIG vollständig erfüllt.



Wir sind jedoch bereit, gemäss Art. 62 VZAE (Verordnung über Zulassung, Aufenthalt und Erwerbstätigkeit) die Prüfung zur Erteilung der vorzeitigen Niederlassungsbewilligung vorzunehmen. Sie und Ihr Ehemann haben die Möglichkeit, dies auf der bereits zugestgellten Verfallsanzeige so zu vermerken. Gemäss den Integrationskriterien (Art. 58a AIG) benötigen folgende Dokumente

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I think your first 3 years don't count into that 10? Since you mentioned post-doc and I remember reading that academy is tricky for permit year counting - in short, it doesn't count or something.

So, if your L and B are for regular non academy employment, they count, but the first 3 might not. So you have only 7 years, and not 10, but it's obviously enough to apply for early permit.
Isn't language requirement like B1 or something?
That doesn't seem too much, especially if you're so long here already.

If my calculation is right, then you can either do higher level of language or wait for 3 more years.

To see which calculation is right, it's best to ask for the details those who told you that you can do only early C permit and not regular one.

@CliiniMuus I think early C is after 5 years of L/B.
Thanks for your reply. From the email I received from migration office, they did not count the 2 year L permit. My 2 year L permit is non academy employment. That is very strange.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 11.06.2021 at 18:13. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 10.06.2021, 17:08
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

Basically they are saying you are not yet eligible under the Normal Process but you can apply under VINTA which is the 'early C Permit' but may have a harder language barrier. You have 03 options. Fight their decision (I would avoid), apply for early C (with the language certificate) or wait for 02 years and go under the normal process. That said, the B1 requirement seems to become standard under Normal C as well. I would go for Option 2 or 3.
Silver lining is that they are not denying you the permit (remember it is not a 'right')..... :-)
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Old 10.06.2021, 17:29
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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Basically they are saying you are not yet eligible under the Normal Process but you can apply under VINTA which is the 'early C Permit' but may have a harder language barrier. You have 03 options. Fight their decision (I would avoid), apply for early C (with the language certificate) or wait for 02 years and go under the normal process. That said, the B1 requirement seems to become standard under Normal C as well. I would go for Option 2 or 3.
Silver lining is that they are not denying you the permit (remember it is not a 'right')..... :-)
I have done the option 1.. I found it clearly said in the federal law that L permit is counted in the 10 years. I think the officer on my case, misunderstood Vorübergehende Aufenthalte and Kurzaufenthalts

Das SEM legt den Zeitpunkt fest, an dem die Niederlassungsbewilligung von den zuständigen kantonalen Behörden frühestens erteilt werden darf (vgl. Ziff. 1.3.3 und zum alten Recht:
BGE 125 II 633). Ein Anspruch auf die Erteilung der Niederlassungsbewilligung besteht nur,
wenn dies im Gesetz ausdrücklich vorgesehen ist (beim Familiennachzug nach Artikel 42
und 43 AIG).
Voraussetzung ist, dass ein ordnungsgemässer ununterbrochener ausländerrechtlicher Aufenthalt gegeben ist und insbesondere keine Widerrufs- oder Erlöschensgründe vorliegen
(Art. 61 und Art. 62 AIG sowie Art. 60, 61 und 80 VZAE).

Für die Erteilung der ordentlichen Niederlassungsbewilligung nach Artikel 34 Absatz 2 AIG
müssen kumulativ zwei Fristen berücksichtigt werden:
− Die ausländische Person muss sich mindestens zehn Jahre mit einer Kurzaufenthalts- oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung in der Schweiz aufgehalten haben.
− Sie muss überdies die letzten fünf Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitze einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung gewesen sein und sich während dieser Zeit auch ohne Unterbruch in
der Schweiz aufgehalten haben.
Vorübergehende Aufenthalte werden an den ununterbrochenen Aufenthalt in den letzten fünf
Jahren der Niederlassungsfrist nicht angerechnet (Ausbildung, Studium, ärztliche Behandlung, Kur, Kurzaufenthalte usw.). Aufenthalte zur Aus- oder Weiterbildung (Art. 27 AIG) werden hingegen nachträglich angerechnet, wenn die betroffene Person nach deren Beendigung während zweier Jahre ununterbrochen im Besitz einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung für einen
dauerhaften Aufenthalt war (Art. 34 Abs. 5 AIG) oder der Aufenthalt mit einer Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung einen dauerhaften Charakter hatte (z.B. durch einen unbefristeten Arbeitsvertrag oder die Behörden und der betroffene Ausländer von Anfang an vom Daueraufenthalt
ausgegangen sind).
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Old 11.06.2021, 09:58
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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I have done the option 1.. I found it clearly said in the federal law that L permit is counted in the 10 years.
Let us know how it goes. The way I read what you quoted in German, they are counting starting from 2016 but they're not counting the years before that when you were studying. So they are already factoring in the L years when saying they will consider you for early C permit if you meet the other requirements.
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Old 11.06.2021, 12:45
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

When you came here as a post-doc, did you have a B permit for Ausbildung, or for Familienachzug? That might be the issue?
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Old 11.06.2021, 15:31
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Let us know how it goes. The way I read what you quoted in German, they are counting starting from 2016 but they're not counting the years before that when you were studying. So they are already factoring in the L years when saying they will consider you for early C permit if you meet the other requirements.
They count my 3 years post-doc study, but reject the following 2 years of L permit (in the quota system). I have argued with the local immigration office, showing them the federal law and their own website which clearly stated that 'Die ausländische Person muss sich mindestens zehn Jahre mit einer Kurzaufenthalts- oder Aufenthaltsbewilligung in der Schweiz aufgehalten haben.' However, the officer still replied to me saying 'Es ist korrekt, dass eine Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung zur Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung nicht angerechnet wird.'

I have left a message on the federal website, to further ask if the local office is against the law.

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When you came here as a post-doc, did you have a B permit for Ausbildung, or for Familienachzug? That might be the issue?
No, my post-doc B is not an issue. They rejected me because of my 2 years L permit.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 11.06.2021 at 18:14. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 11.06.2021, 15:43
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

Just to ask, since you mentioned above that the higher language requirement was a problem for you, are you communicating with them in German? Are you conveying your messages yourself, or is someone helping you as a go-between of sorts?
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Old 11.06.2021, 16:54
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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No, my post-doc B is not an issue. They rejected me because of my 2 years L permit.
Are you sure? I mean, in those quotes you provided I didn't see any numbers, so maybe there lies the main issue?

I agree with you, so far I've seen being mentioned and in rules, L and B time both counts, but maybe there was something lost in translation between you and migrations office?
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Old 11.06.2021, 17:16
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Just to ask, since you mentioned above that the higher language requirement was a problem for you, are you communicating with them in German? Are you conveying your messages yourself, or is someone helping you as a go-between of sorts?
I communicated with them in German. I took some B1 course in last year. At least my German teacher thought that I had B1 level...But I am still confusing, why the officer's decision against the law...

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Are you sure? I mean, in those quotes you provided I didn't see any numbers, so maybe there lies the main issue?

I agree with you, so far I've seen being mentioned and in rules, L and B time both counts, but maybe there was something lost in translation between you and migrations office?
This is the reply from the officer:

Guten Morgen Herr XXX,

Es ist korrekt, dass eine Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung zur Erteilung einer Niederlassungsbewilligung nicht angerechnet wird.


In a later email, she said:

Eine ordentliche Niederlassungsbewilligung ist erst möglich, wenn die betroffene Person 10 Jahre im Besitze einer Aufenthaltsbewilligung (B) ist.


So you can see that she did not count the Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 11.06.2021 at 18:15. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 16.06.2021, 13:26
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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Let us know how it goes. The way I read what you quoted in German, they are counting starting from 2016 but they're not counting the years before that when you were studying. So they are already factoring in the L years when saying they will consider you for early C permit if you meet the other requirements.
Finally the local officer admits that she made a mistake...My past 10 years should be all counted so I can apply for a normal C permit this summer.
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Old 16.06.2021, 14:54
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

Just for context, in case this comes up again for someone, did they come to realise it, and contact you spontaneously, upon realising their mistake, or did you do something to escalate it further? Any others who have the same experience may benefit from knowing how you handled it.
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Old 16.06.2021, 16:09
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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Just for context, in case this comes up again for someone, did they come to realise it, and contact you spontaneously, upon realising their mistake, or did you do something to escalate it further? Any others who have the same experience may benefit from knowing how you handled it.
I don't know what OP did but in case just trying to talk sense into the officer doesn't work, you ask for a "beschwerdefähige Verfügung" (an official decision that can be challenged). It's more likely that such a decision gets reviewed by somebody else so they can notice that it's blatantly against the law and correct it. Or if not, you go to court and get it overturned and the offending party gets to pay all the costs.
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Old 18.06.2021, 14:05
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Re: non-EU after 10 years cannot apply for normal C permit??

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Just for context, in case this comes up again for someone, did they come to realise it, and contact you spontaneously, upon realising their mistake, or did you do something to escalate it further? Any others who have the same experience may benefit from knowing how you handled it.
I sent the screenshot of the federal law showing that L permit is counted in the 10 years to the officer. I also left message on the federal website to ask why in my case the L permit is not counted... I assume, that the local officer may be later approached by the federal officer?? Anyway, they later sent me an email saying that I can apply for a normal C, without apology. I told my Swiss friends about my experience. They do not believe that the officer did not know the law thus made a mistake. Otherwise this is a scandal and the officer should be fired... I do not want to make any further speculation. My experience is that DO NOT give it up easily. Sometimes you should fight back if you are sure that they made a mistake.
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