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  #41  
Old 04.08.2021, 04:50
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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That is not Swiss specific.
AfaIk it's even so for a certain period of time after a divorce (let me guess, 10 months? )
It can be sorted. But it must be sorted. (Btw. it's not comfi for the non-father who is being held responsible until it is sorted).
It's certainly not the case in the UK. It might be slightly harder to register another man as the father than the husband, but certainly fairly easily possible. Switzerland needs to drag itself into the 21st century
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  #42  
Old 04.08.2021, 08:32
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

Reading this confirmed what I had heard about paternity, (and about the ‘traditional’ mindset of Swiss law) but got me wondering.
A friend (unmarried) has had a child with a (in the process of divorce) man, and has been struggling to sort out passports/birth certificates/dependency visa (she is EU, C-permit, he is non-EU, never been here).
At one point, when trying to get the Swiss birth certificate, she was asked for the soon-to-be-ex-wife’s birth certificate and passport, and we could not figure out why they were needed.
Because Daddy is still married, is the baby actually his current wife’s rather than the biological mother’s? Or is Swiss law just really sexist?
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  #43  
Old 04.08.2021, 08:35
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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It's certainly not the case in the UK. It might be slightly harder to register another man as the father than the husband, but certainly fairly easily possible. Switzerland needs to drag itself into the 21st century
UK law is, the father has to be present to sign the birth register if he is not the husband. So only slightly harder in that the father must attend the registration. If married, he can stay in the pub and the mum can put his name down without him.
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  #44  
Old 04.08.2021, 14:57
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Or is Swiss law just really sexist?
It obviously is.
Before the availability of DNA tests the husband had no way to challenge the legal situation, no was to contest being responsible for a child he didn't father.

Of course that's far from the only case.
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  #45  
Old 04.08.2021, 16:56
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Because Daddy is still married, is the baby actually his current wife’s rather than the biological mother’s? Or is Swiss law just really sexist?
I assume even the Swiss wouldn't question who's lady bits the baby had come out of ..... seems paternity is the issue here.
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  #46  
Old 04.08.2021, 17:33
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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It obviously is.
Before the availability of DNA tests the husband had no way to challenge the legal situation, no was to contest being responsible for a child he didn't father.

Of course that's far from the only case.
Yes, the Swiss laws are sexist in several ways. There are pages and pages out there, of fathers who were unable to gain access to their children, in some cases not even when court judgments had granted them official time with their children. It is very, very sad.

However, before DNA tests it was possible - albeit it very difficult - for a husband to challenge paternity. If his wife (being pregnant by someone else) would not declare that openly, it was permissible for him to bring evidence of her having had sex elsewhere. That, in itself, is hard to prove.

An old Swiss man told me of a case, which must have taken place in about 1940 or 1950, where the husband declared that he and his wife had not had sex for several years, so that the child could not possibly be his. At first, no-one believed him. However, he had a pretty good idea of who the biological father could be, having suspected an affair for quite a while.

In those days, one of the ways to assess paternity was by physical likeness. He told his wife that he would be going over to talk to that man (prominent, in their town) to tell him that he was most likely expecting a child. The wife implored him not to do so, as it would be a scandal for the mayor-dude (let alone for herself). The husband said: "The truth will out," and went to the mayor-dude's office, and informed him how very convenient it was that the mayor was so much hairier than he, and how much darker his hair was than he, and how much taller than he, with such larger feet and hands. The mayor denied everything. The husband said: "We shall wait and see."

The pregnancy progressed, while the husband, unbeknown to the wife, had enlisted the aide of several trusted people in the town. They watched and waited, listened and took notes.

By the time the baby was born, with a nice, full head of dark curls, and long toes and fingers, the dates and times had been recorded, of who had seen his wife going in and out of mayor-dude's office, etc., and the powers that be (perhaps it was the doctor and the church minister, I don't know) confronted the woman and the mayor, who cracked and confessed, and the husband was relieved of all parental duties, and a divorce was granted him, with no maintenance to pay, neither child nor mother.

The only person who was really, really unhappy was mayor-dude's wife.

EDIT: The grossly unfair part of this tale - although it ended fairly for the husband - is that, had he not had trusted people in town, who were looking out for him, and had he not been able to get the attention of the doctor and minister, or had he not known who the father might be, or even only had he and the child's biological father looked more similar, he would have been sunk.
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  #47  
Old 04.08.2021, 19:45
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

There are several conflict of laws issues here. One of my many daughters, never married, had a child by IVF in England by donor sperm selected from a catalogue. This is very common among 40ish spinsters in the USA, U.K., Canada, Israel and elsewhere. It is unlawful in Switzerland and (until a new law takes effect) in France. My daughter had no problem registering the child with the Swiss consulate. Indeed the marital and parental status under the law of the country of residence at various times is relevant.

A clever move might be to seek an annulment rather than a divorce, if the facts permit. Otherwise a Swiss divorce is fine (the ex would have to object to venue and given the info given I think that improbable).

True there is a rebuttable presumption of paternity in favour of a legal spouse but in this DNA age you no longer have to prove imprisonment or presence on the high seas.

PS: My grandfather divorced my grandmother under Zürich law while he lived there and she lived in NY as they had, for decades. He did it at age 80 to get a boost to his Swiss pension. She just signed the papers or at least proof of receipt. She was getting US Social Security; they hadn’t seen each other for decades.
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  #48  
Old 04.08.2021, 19:56
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

So sad for the child too (the child in doro’s post)
To be an illegitimate child in those days must have been very difficult.
Many illegitimate children were taken away from their mothers too.
So the self-righteous dude who didn’t touch his wife in years makes a scandal?
He could have contacted the mayor quietly, got his divorce and moved on.
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  #49  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:01
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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So sad for the child too (the child in doro’s post)
To be an illegitimate child in those days must have been very difficult.
Many illegitimate children were taken away from their mothers too.
So the self-righteous dude who didn’t touch his wife in years makes a scandal?
He could have contacted the mayor quietly, got his divorce and moved on.
I can see that side, too, and I agree that, in general, it is much better to put things in place quietly, wherever possible. Sometimes that doesn't work, though.

As I understood the story from the old Swiss man who told it to me, there was no option of a quiet divorce. The powers that were wouldn't grant it to the man, especially not - as they had first perceived it - since he was about to become a father. When he did speak to his wife, and to the mayor quietly, both denied their affair, and the mayor declined all responsibility - although they were not telling the truth. The divorce, and the release from a paternity which was not his, became possible only when the man was able to produce the range evidence.

You're certainly right that illegitimate children were made to suffer greatly, in those times, and through no fault of their own, after all! I don't know about that particular child's having been taken from the mother, and I somehow don't think so, as the old man who told me was clear that the mayor did have to support the mother and child.
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Old 04.08.2021, 21:14
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

On the contrary, illegitimate children in CH have the same full rights as legitimate children!

Where do you come up with this rubbish?

Tom
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  #51  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:23
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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On the contrary, illegitimate children in CH have the same full rights as legitimate children!

Where do you come up with this rubbish?

Tom

But... but... from all the above it would appear that the child does not have the same right to have its biological father recognised easily?


Kind regards




Ian
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  #52  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:23
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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There are several conflict of laws issues here. One of my many daughters, never married, had a child by IVF in England by donor sperm selected from a catalogue. This is very common among 40ish spinsters in the USA, U.K., Canada, Israel and elsewhere. It is unlawful in Switzerland and (until a new law takes effect) in France. My daughter had no problem registering the child with the Swiss consulate. Indeed the marital and parental status under the law of the country of residence at various times is relevant.
Would this have been an issue even if she was living in Switzerland and went abroad for IVF? She is pregnant, single and doesn't know the father, that's all the Swiss authorities would need to know, no?
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  #53  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:45
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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On the contrary, illegitimate children in CH have the same full rights as legitimate children!

Where do you come up with this rubbish?

Tom
Yes, now they do... almost. But in the past, in that story from the 1940s or 1950s, on which Sky was commenting, there were definitely differences between the rights of children born inside and outside of wedlock.
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  #54  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:52
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Would this have been an issue even if she was living in Switzerland and went abroad for IVF? She is pregnant, single and doesn't know the father, that's all the Swiss authorities would need to know, no?
No.

That is illegal, as every child has the legal right to know who their father is.

Tom
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Old 04.08.2021, 21:52
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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But... but... from all the above it would appear that the child does not have the same right to have its biological father recognised easily?

Kind regards

Ian
I'm going back to Sandra, of the original post. The unborn child has no automatic right to its biological father, for as long as Sandra is still married, and also still no automatic right after the divorce, since the baby will be born either during the marriage or within 300 days of the divorce.

The child does, however, have the right to sue the mother and the father-on-paper, for a claim to have the true paternity recognised. Someone can represent the child, but not any of its parents or deemed or purported parents. It is mind-boggling to read, and I don't understand it fully.
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  #56  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:54
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

In the meantime, I have some potentially good news: it seems there is a good chance that when the divorce is finally granted, after all the delays, in that non-EU country, the official papers (decree?) will state that this divorcing couple has no children. If that's really the case, it should help a whole lot, to get things sorted out properly, here in Switzerland.
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Old 04.08.2021, 21:54
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Yes, now they do... almost. But in the past, in that story from the 1940s or 1950s, on which Sky was commenting, there were definitely differences between the rights of children born inside and outside of wedlock.
How, "almost"?

As far as inheritance goes, they do, which means more kids, less for the rest!

Tom
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  #58  
Old 04.08.2021, 21:55
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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I'm going back to Sandra, of the original post. The unborn child has no automatic right to its biological father, for as long as Sandra is still married, and also still no right after the divorce, since the baby will be born either during the marriage or within 300 days of the divorce.

The child does, however, have the right to sue the mother and the father-on-paper, for a claim to have the true paternity recognised. Someone can represent the child, but not any of its parents or deemed or purported parents. It is mind-boggling to read, and I don't understand it fully.
Yes, but this DOES cost.

And should they win, it would make sense to make restitution of all sums paid by the wronged pseudo-father.

Tom
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  #59  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:05
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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No.

That is illegal, as every child has the legal right to know who their father is.

Tom
Certainly in the past, in certain countries, sperm donors have been allowed anonymity. And even in Switzerland it can't be illegal to not have a named father if they are not known (instances such as 1 night stand or rape for example). What happens here with sperm donation to married couples, I assume the husband is named not the donor? Anyway, totally off-topic.
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Old 04.08.2021, 22:07
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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How, "almost"?

As far as inheritance goes, they do, which means more kids, less for the rest!

Tom
Mmm... I read about this a few days ago on a lawyer's website, which I can't quote now. But one part had to do with the fact that the naming conventions are different.

More importantly, the parental authority always rests with the mother (unless she herself is under guardianship) by reason of her having given birth to the child. It also rests, automatically, with a father who is married to the mother. However, a father who is not married to the mother can gain parental authority only
  • by the mother specifically allowing this, or
  • by his putting in a successful application to the KESB or possibly to the Court, asserting his right to parental authority, naming reasons.

This may, at first glance, seem to be only about the father, and his rights. However, as you rightly pointed out, a child has rights, too: to know who its father is, and also to enjoy the benefits of that father exercising parental authority over it.
  • Any child born in Switzerland, in wedlock, automatically has the benefit of having two parents who can register the child at school, buy it medical insurance, and sign authority for an medical procedure, and so on.

  • Any child born in Switzerland, out of wedlock, runs the risk of having only one such parent, (the mother) unless the father's parental authority is granted by one of the means above. This can leave a child whose mother becomes unable to care for it, vulnerable and without a legal guardian, and then placed under the guardianship of the KESB... even when the father is present.
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