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  #61  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:11
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Yes, but this DOES cost.

And should they win, it would make sense to make restitution of all sums paid by the wronged pseudo-father.

Tom
Yes, I agree about restitution to a wronged non-biological "father". In Sandra's case, there will be nothing of the sort, since that hopefully-soon-to-be-ex husband will not have paid any sums.
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  #62  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:14
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Certainly in the past, in certain countries, sperm donors have been allowed anonymity. And even in Switzerland it can't be illegal to not have a named father if they are not known (instances such as 1 night stand or rape for example).
Some years ago I was informed by an officer in the KESB that when a mother cannot or will not name the father, the KESB will undertake some (how much?) investigation to try to determine his identity, including enquiries in the mother's social environment, etc.
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  #63  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:21
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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So sad for the child too (the child in doro’s post)
To be an illegitimate child in those days must have been very difficult.
Many illegitimate children were taken away from their mothers too.
So the self-righteous dude who didn’t touch his wife in years makes a scandal?
He could have contacted the mayor quietly, got his divorce and moved on.
"In those days" maybe. But illegitimacy has been abolished in virtually every Western jurisdiction. Indeed the word is now offensive: "non-marital" is the current legal terminology.
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  #64  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:27
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Reading this confirmed what I had heard about paternity, (and about the ‘traditional’ mindset of Swiss law) but got me wondering.
A friend (unmarried) has had a child with a (in the process of divorce) man, and has been struggling to sort out passports/birth certificates/dependency visa (she is EU, C-permit, he is non-EU, never been here).
At one point, when trying to get the Swiss birth certificate, she was asked for the soon-to-be-ex-wife’s birth certificate and passport, and we could not figure out why they were needed.
Because Daddy is still married, is the baby actually his current wife’s rather than the biological mother’s? Or is Swiss law just really sexist?
Swiss law in these matters is constrained by rulings of the European Court of Human Rights. The "best interests of the child" rule.

Sometimes this means that a person not the father, who did not disprove paternity in time, winds up liable for child support. The key words are "in time". Rebuttable presumptions are just that. An outsider to the marriage may not have standing to claim paternity if the mother and her spouse both claim parentage; otherwise the "best interests" rule probably allows the mother and the biological father to claim rights.

In IVF cases the identity of the father is not revealed until the child reaches age 18. But the proliferation of DIY DNA research has made that irrelevant. There are half-sibling clubs of those who found each other online. That doesn't yield any rights, but it gives them identity and, sometimes, important medical information.
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  #65  
Old 04.08.2021, 22:38
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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UK law is, the father has to be present to sign the birth register if he is not the husband. So only slightly harder in that the father must attend the registration. If married, he can stay in the pub and the mum can put his name down without him.
That is quite correct. My spouse registered the birth of our first child at the hospital in NYC. I registered the next two in Lambeth and the fourth in Belfast by myself. The hospitals notify the local Register Office of births, so they have the mother's identity and the date and time of birth of the child, and perhaps (at least in NYC) medical information (such as number of previous children) that is not printed on the birth certificate.

The problem with a UK birth certificate with two signatures is that it screams out "non-marital". In N.I., unlike G.B., nationality of parents is not shown: it would reveal the child's religion. Of course asking the child where s/he goes to school -- and for working-class infants the street address shown on the birth certificate -- reveals that anyway. My daughter's birth certificate shows our London address. You can Google 'chen zhu ecj' and deduce why Mr Chen (a businessman resident in China) and his wife Ms Zhu (resident in Wales presumably on a tourist visa) contrived to have Catherine born in Belfast some two decades after our daughter was born there, in 1983.

Interestingly when, at age 17 or 18 she applied for a grant from our Borough to attend Cambridge the Borough listed her nationality as "N.I." There is of course no such nationality although the Good Friday agreement did give most persons born there the right to choose. The nationality laws of both Britain and Ireland have largely abolished jus soli in laws of 1980 and 2004 respectively. Our daughter registered as British in 1997 and became Swiss about the same time. She is now a NHS surgeon.
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  #66  
Old 04.08.2021, 23:26
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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The problem with a UK birth certificate with two signatures is that it screams out "non-marital"
Really? My husband came with me to register the birth and signed.
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  #67  
Old 05.08.2021, 03:07
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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So the self-righteous dude who didn’t touch his wife in years makes a scandal?
He could have contacted the mayor quietly, got his divorce and moved on.
Thank you.

It would be difficult to better demonstrate the general tendency of not holding women accountable. There's nothing more despicable than her yet you try to shift blame on the innocent husband. Blame the devil if you can but you must not hold women accontable, not even an adulterer who betrayed the husband's trust, decided to fock around at no end, and cuckold him even after he confronted her.

Try to see the other side of the coin every once in a while.

Can you even begin to imagine, after the birth, the torture of facing the result of the adulterer's betrayal each and every day for decades, the woman he once loved and maybe still loves, and being forced to pay for someone else's betrayal each and every day?

What could be even more emasculating?
Would it be that far fetched, without a verdict in his favour, if he killed one or both or all three, just to end the pain?

Last edited by Urs Max; 05.08.2021 at 14:10. Reason: replaced offensive word
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  #68  
Old 05.08.2021, 03:31
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Would it be that far fetched, without a verdict in his favour, if he killed one or both or all three, just to end the pain?
Urs Max,
As you will have seen from my several posts on the matters of equal rights, I am for just that: equal rights for both men and women, no less, no more. I know many good men and many good women, and a few of them have lives which are just about crippled because of gross injustices, and some of those latter have been decided, by individuals, institutions or powers that be, on the basis of clichés based primarily on gender. That's wrong.

So, I speak up for men's rights, as I do for women's rights. I think that the voice for women's rights has become louder over the past few decades, and I think that is a good thing. I also strongly believe that the voice for men's rights needs more advocates: rational, sane, strong, determined voices for equality.

Even so, that last question of yours: that goes too far. "Would it be that far fetched... if someone killed someone else... to end the pain?" Yes, it would be too far fetched, and way beyond any fair, reasonable (or legal) limit.

Some people choose to end their lives just to end the pain they can no longer endure, and I'm in favour of anyone's right to free choice to end their own life. But no, it would not be acceptable, not morally, not legally, not societally, for someone to kill one or two other people. Nor, indeed, would it be effective in "ending the pain", because killing someone else does not, in fact, set right the causal injustice, nor does it ever put an end to pain, but instead sets off new waves of pain and suffering. Broadening the circle of wrong-doing does not fix anything.
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  #69  
Old 05.08.2021, 04:29
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Even so, that last question of yours: that goes too far. "Would it be that far fetched... if someone killed someone else... to end the pain?" Yes, it would be too far fetched, and way beyond any fair, reasonable (or legal) limit.
There's a difference between one's personal situation and the legal aspect. And do extend your demand to not hurt others to the adulterer's behaviour.

The question isn't if it's legal, the question is how it feels for a man and if such a reaction would be all that unusual. You know the headlines as well as I do, that makes the answer to the latter blatantly obvious.

Frankly, I don't think any woman is in a position to have an opinion on that. Simply because you don't know how it feels, or what it means, to be a man.
What you do know is what it means to be a woman, that's all.

Just like no man can know what it feels like to be pregnant, no woman can know what it feels like to be cuckheld (cuckholded?). And don't try to tell me the adulterer's behaviour was Ok or even in the slightest defensible.

Last edited by Urs Max; 05.08.2021 at 14:09. Reason: replaced offensive word
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  #70  
Old 05.08.2021, 07:27
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

UM, that’s going way too far.

Tra moglie e marito non mettere il dito
Between wife and husband, don’t put a finger
Meaning: nobody is aware or knows what goes on between husband and wife and nobody can judge or get involved.

And that goes for your message and my original one too.
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  #71  
Old 05.08.2021, 07:44
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

Except it all gets aired online in much detail and people are asked for advice, opinions and solutions.

Can't have it both ways - either don't air it, or have opinions and stick a finger...somewhere hygienic, I hope.
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  #72  
Old 05.08.2021, 09:39
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Just like no man can know what it feels like to be pregnant, no woman can know what it feels like to be cuckheld (cuckholded?). And don't try to tell me the slut's behaviour was Ok or even in the slightest defensible.
Yeah because, as we all know, only women cheat on men........
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  #73  
Old 05.08.2021, 11:44
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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And don't try to tell me the slut's behaviour was Ok or even in the slightest defensible.
UrsMarx, strange you didnt notice how there's something fishy about that story from the 50ties..

That story tells us about a man who didnt have any physical contact for a long time with his wife but she got pregnant... then he took measures to prove how he is not the father and all..But, in this story it seems how the woman was someone either mentally challenged or else, because if they didnt have any physical contact then obviously she did not expect him to think how he is the biological father ...And who knows what was going on between them. (maybe he couldnt have sex or didnt want child..) and she got seduced by someone or something happened and there you go...
Interesting how she's a slut but if he/ the husband had an affair of one night (or more) there's no equal adjective to apply for him.
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Old 05.08.2021, 12:05
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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UM, that’s going way too far.

Tra moglie e marito non mettere il dito
Between wife and husband, don’t put a finger
Meaning: nobody is aware or knows what goes on between husband and wife and nobody can judge or get involved.

And that goes for your message and my original one too.
Yet that's exactly what you do, just so you can try to shift blame.

Besides, that's bullshit. What that woman apparently did has no excuse.
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Yeah because, as we all know, only women cheat on men........
So, because some men cheat on their wives this husband has to accept his wife's absolutely despicable behaviour.

Yours is one more confirmation that women can't be held responsible for their deeds, no matter how despicable they are. By definition it's always someone else's fault.
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  #75  
Old 05.08.2021, 13:39
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

Mod's can you please remove the pejorative term used for women from the above posts? Perhaps even go 1 step further, and consider doing something about the hateful, anti-women, toxic rhetoric in general, so the forum doesn't continue to be polluted with it.
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  #76  
Old 05.08.2021, 21:56
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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Mod's can you please remove the pejorative term used for women from the above posts?
I fully agree.
We need to make (and keep) our forum a kind place.
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  #77  
Old 05.08.2021, 22:36
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

It seems, that the offending term has been removed by the poster.
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Old 05.08.2021, 23:08
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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It seems, that the offending term has been removed by the poster.
That post has far more offensive content than just the offending word.
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Old 05.08.2021, 23:37
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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That post has far more offensive content than just the offending word.
I don't condone name-calling and I don't know Sandra nor do I care about her. The person OP described has a track record of bad decision making. . .it is what it is. Sad though, that she's about to bring a child into this world under such circumstances.
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Old 06.08.2021, 12:59
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Re: Planned marriage (but not yet divorced) / Visa D / tourist visa

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I don't condone name-calling and I don't know Sandra nor do I care about her.
Yes, as far as I know, no-one who has contributed on this thread does know Sandra, apart from me. And also fair enough, LiB, if you don't care about her.

Yet I do, very much, care about Sandra. And some users who posted here - in amongst other posts containing unnecessary nastiness and aggression - have demonstrated an encouraging amount of care about her and her situation, which is kind, and much appreciated. That goes for those, too, who pointed out further potential issues, which I had not considered, when I started the thread.

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The person OP described has a track record of bad decision making. . .it is what it is. Sad though, that she's about to bring a child into this world under such circumstances.
As to Sandra's track record: of this no-one here knows much, at all. My descriptions are obviously focusing on the confusing, difficult and unresolved parts of this particular aspect of her life... which is, after all, why I was asking for help. And for that reason, too, I haven't spent this thread writing about her many other, excellent decisions in her life, and all her achievements and accomplishments.

And since this thread needs a focus towards solutions, I've deliberately avoided bemoaning the circumstances and apportioning blame on the other persons involved and who caused things - with regard to this apsect of Sandra's life - to become so dauntingly convoluted, not of her making and outside of her power to fix, before now.

As it is, Sandra's going to be a wonderful mum, and that her baby is on the way is not sad news at all. Baby is going to be blessed with a great dad, too, one who wants to be and will be there, fully participating. Both of these adults are caring and responsible, hardworking, enthusiastic and honest. Plus: they have good connections and support amongst the extended family.

Undoing the detrimental sides of the bureacracy and straightening things out will probably still take a while, but I've learnt a lot, including useful vocabulary, and gained an idea of the direction of the steps to be taken, so thank you to all those who have contributed usefully and kindly.
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