Non-EU spouse of an EU citizen + C permit holder

tuteca · #1 04.02.2007, 22:48

Hi there,

this is the first time I'm using this, so hopefully am doing it right.

I am a non-EU citizen working in London. My partner (EU citizen + C-permit holder) and I are considering marriage and with that, possibility of me moving to Switzerland. He is currently self-employed, i.e. consultant for an Italian company. I understand that as his spouse, I would be getting a B-permit on family reunification grounds, as his spouse. But I'm a little confused/need clarification on the following:

1. Does this B permit automatically give me the right to work? More importantly, would it automatically allow me to be self-employed, i.e. do consultancy work abroad with Switzerland being my home/residence?

2. If we wanted to change cantons (boyfriend currently based in Ticino), how easy would it be for me to change necessary paperwork (i.e. would I have to reapply for a new B permit from scratch)?

3. Do you know of good law firm that could help with this?

Many thanks in advance for taking the time to respond to this....

Richard · #2 04.02.2007, 23:20

	Quote:	tuteca
	Hi there, this is the first time I'm using this, so hopefully am doing it right. I am a non-EU citizen working in London. My partner (EU citizen + C-permit holder) and I are considering marriage and with that, possibility of me moving to Switzerland. He is currently self-employed, i.e. consultant for an Italian company. I understand that as his spouse, I would be getting a B-permit on family reunification grounds, as his spouse. But I'm a little confused/need clarification on the following: 1. Does this B permit automatically give me the right to work? More importantly, would it automatically allow me to be self-employed, i.e. do consultancy work abroad with Switzerland being my home/residence? 2. If we wanted to change cantons (boyfriend currently based in Ticino), how easy would it be for me to change necessary paperwork (i.e. would I have to reapply for a new B permit from scratch)? 3. Do you know of good law firm that could help with this? Many thanks in advance for taking the time to respond to this....

Actually you would get an EU/EFTA B permit on the grounds that your husband is from the EU. With this the answers are:

1. Yes. Yes.
2. Easy, no.
3. Not needed.

Go and look in other threads and assume you will be a first class citizen ie from the EU and you will find answers to a whole host of other related questions as well.

tuteca · #3 05.02.2007, 00:52

Thanks so much for the prompt response.
Am relieved to hear it's not going to be too difficult, but will also look through other threads to understand the process better.

lala · #4 05.02.2007, 10:38

Sorry but the first question can't be so easily replied with yes! Permit B on the ground of a family reunion does not automatically imply a right of working.

as for the third question, a lawyer is not necessary, better you ask at the foreign authorities Ticino.

http://www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=260&L=3&S=1

	Quote:
	First-time permits for gainful employment may only be issued within the limits of the ceilings and in compliance with Arts. 7-11 BVO.

Richard · #5 05.02.2007, 11:12

	Quote:	lala
	Sorry but the first question can't be so easily replied with yes! Permit B on the ground of a family reunion does not automatically imply a right of working. as for the third question, a lawyer is not necessary, better you ask at the foreign authorities Ticino. http://www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=260&L=3&S=1

Yes it does when the person is getting an EU/EFTA B Permit on these grounds.

Shorrick Mk2 · #6 05.02.2007, 11:19

	Quote:	lala
	Sorry but the first question can't be so easily replied with yes! Permit B on the ground of a family reunion does not automatically imply a right of working. http://www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=260&L=3&S=1

Actually in this particular case it can. Spouses of EU nationals can claim the right to subsequent immigration based on the AFMP, with the condition that they must have been lawful residents in an EU/EFTA country prior to applying for the right (see relevant Federal Tribunal jurisprudence, november 03).

If the spouse holds only a temporary EU/Efta permit (or none at all) then the situation is different (and governed by the Law on foreign nationals... and the subsequent ordinance).

lala · #7 05.02.2007, 11:22

	Quote:	Richard
	Yes it does when the person is getting an EU/EFTA B Permit on these grounds.

Tuteca states she's a non-EU-national, so I assume she doesn't get a EU/EFTA B.

lala · #8 05.02.2007, 11:28

	Quote:	Shorrick Mk2
	Actually in this particular case it can. Spouses of EU nationals can claim the right to subsequent immigration based on the AFMP, with the condition that they must have been lawful residents in an EU/EFTA country prior to applying for the right (see relevant Federal Tribunal jurisprudence, november 03). If the spouse holds only a temporary EU/Efta permit (or none at all) then the situation is different (and governed by the Law on foreign nationals... and the subsequent ordinance).

I think you misunderstood me. Tuteca will have a legal claim for her permit B since her hubby has a C, that is for sure.

HOWEVER, a permit B granted within a family reunion does not automatically include a work permit, it never does. One has to apply for it, and there I don't know how it is regulated for foreign (third country) spouses of C holders. I assume it shouldn't be too difficult.

Richard · #9 05.02.2007, 11:49

	Quote:	lala
	I think you misunderstood me. Tuteca will have a legal claim for her permit B since her hubby has a C, that is for sure. HOWEVER, a permit B granted within a family reunion does not automatically include a work permit, it never does. One has to apply for it, and there I don't know how it is regulated for foreign (third country) spouses of C holders. I assume it shouldn't be too difficult.

I think you are missing a key point here. Although a South African citizen she will be treated as an EU citizen due to his status and that includes getting a B permit with a right to work under the terms of the CH EU Agreement. It has in this case nothing to do with the usual procedures it is automatic irrespective of quotas etc.

Shorrick Mk2 · #10 05.02.2007, 11:51

	Quote:	lala
	I think you misunderstood me. Tuteca will have a legal claim for her permit B since her hubby has a C, that is for sure.

What Richard said.

lala · #11 05.02.2007, 12:22

	Quote:	Richard
	I think you are missing a key point here. Although a South African citizen she will be treated as an EU citizen due to his status and that includes getting a B permit with a right to work under the terms of the CH EU Agreement. It has in this case nothing to do with the usual procedures it is automatic irrespective of quotas etc.

I'm ignorant to the fact she's South African (?).

I am Swiss and my husband is (or was) a non-EU/EFTA-citizen, altough as the spouse of a Swiss he was never subject to any quota but his employers had to apply for his work permit, every change of job had to be reported to the foreign authorities. It was however just a simple formality (with some charges....

). I stick to it, work permits are never attached automatically to B permits unless one gets a B permit because of a job.

Shorrick Mk2 · #12 05.02.2007, 12:32

	Quote:	lala
	I stick to it, work permits are never attached automatically to B permits unless one gets a B permit because of a job.

	Quote:
	The right to a subsequent immigration of the family is only granted on the strength of the original residence permit issued to the EC/EFTA national in accordance with the provisions of the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons. The family members' right constitutes a derived right, which on principle is only applicable as long as the original right applies. The object of the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons is limited to the free movement of persons between the contracting states. It does not govern the rights of third-country nationals who are family members of EC/EFTA nationals with regard to access to Swiss territory. Family members of nationals of an EC/EFTA country who originate from third countries may only invoke the right to subsequent immigration if they have already been lawful permanent residents in an EC/EFTA member country before they submit their application. [...] With the Agreement in force, the spouse and the members of his family who have joined him are entitled to take up a job or become self-employed throughout Switzerland and in the industry of their choice regardless of their nationality. For the family members, access to the labour market is subject to a permit but not to the quota.

Clicky here .

Richard · #13 05.02.2007, 13:09

	Quote:	lala
	I'm ignorant to the fact she's South African (?). I am Swiss and my husband is (or was) a non-EU/EFTA-citizen, altough as the spouse of a Swiss he was never subject to any quota but his employers had to apply for his work permit, every change of job had to be reported to the foreign authorities. It was however just a simple formality (with some charges.... ). I stick to it, work permits are never attached automatically to B permits unless one gets a B permit because of a job.

Now I understand where you are overlooking something fundamental. A lot of people and nearly all Swiss people believe that someone marrying a Swiss citizen must have as many rights as anyone can get. This is not true. The negotiation of the EU with Switzerland has produced situations where the EU Citizen or spouse thereof etc has more rights than the spouse of a Swiss citizen or things are handled differently.

Here is such an example. While the permit is needed the act of marriage guarantees this with access to the job market included. ie the B permit that is applied for post marriage comes defacto with the right to work.

msmaddymax · #14 22.02.2007, 20:55

okay the swiss bureacracy is really freaking me out.

so if you're the wife of a swiss national, therefore on a B permit not restricted to quotas, your employer still has to apply for work permission?? does this include every crappy bar job you may take on?

god, making the adjustment from england, where regulation is close to nil, is going to be tough!

litespeed · #15 22.02.2007, 21:08

	Quote:	msmaddymax
	okay the swiss bureacracy is really freaking me out. so if you're the wife of a swiss national, therefore on a B permit not restricted to quotas, your employer still has to apply for work permission?? does this include every crappy bar job you may take on? god, making the adjustment from england, where regulation is close to nil, is going to be tough!

The application for a work permit is in most cases a formality. The exception now is non-EU/EFTA citizens not married to a Swiss or EU person living and working here. The door for these people is much harder to get through.

Richard · #16 23.02.2007, 14:45

	Quote:	litespeed
	The application for a work permit is in most cases a formality. The exception now is non-EU/EFTA citizens not married to a Swiss or EU person living and working here. The door for these people is much harder to get through.

Urrgh my dear Litespeed not yet it is not and do not forget we are talking about old EU still...

Richard · #17 23.02.2007, 14:46

	Quote:	msmaddymax
	okay the swiss bureacracy is really freaking me out. so if you're the wife of a swiss national, therefore on a B permit not restricted to quotas, your employer still has to apply for work permission?? does this include every crappy bar job you may take on? god, making the adjustment from england, where regulation is close to nil, is going to be tough!

As I said before no you are free to take on a job without restriction and without application for permission to work ie your permission to stay is also your permission to work

The future employer must though register this with the authorities and gain your work permission...

Thats as clear as mud. Take it that once you have had one job you will have no problems.

msmaddymax · #18 23.02.2007, 15:25

i just got back from the embassy, where she first sent me away b/c i didn't have everything (this was after calling every day this week and not getting any info about what i need!)...after a few minutes i returned and for some reason she went ahead and processed my application?!

anyway, as you say, she said that my residency permit will give me the right to work and that it will just be a formality to register that employment.

and shockingly, because i am married to a swiss national i did not have to pay a fee for my visa application!

Nicki · #19 01.03.2007, 02:06

Hello
I just joined and would like to know more.I myself r married to an Eu citizen and is a Non Eu.Living in ireland and r applying for an Eu residency permit.But as usual they're dragging there feet up in Dublin.I want to go to an Immigration lawyer to get clarification.For the last two years i was only required to register at the immigration,but now things changed and nobody is saying anything.
I am new to all of this..can they refuse me?

Regards

rapmas15 · #20 01.03.2007, 10:27

Hello,

The first time i found this website on Google by accident, i started reading the views of members. It was so interesting that i read about 2 hours and than signed up. It is so live the website, there are so many problems and their answered solutions by smart people. Wow really a very nice site, i will recommend to all my anglophone friends.

hats off you.