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Old 06.02.2009, 10:33
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What sort of Permit, if any?

Hi,
I am confused - easily done I know - about what sort of permit, if any, I need.
I (EU citizen) am contracted to a UK company who have a contract with an American company to support a Swiss company (in Basel). I live in England, commute to Switzerland every week, work i Basel for typically 4 days, stay in a hotel and commute back again. I have been doing this for several months and am likely to be asked to continue to do this for at least another 6 months and maybe 12.

I have no contract with a Swiss company so I cant get them to sponsor me.

From what I have read, the International permit seems nearest but this involves withholding tax and as I dont get paid in Switzerland, that seems a non-starter.
* Do I actually need a permit at all?
* If I dont get one, is someone likely to appear in the middle of the night and drag me off to prison.
* Would the situation change if I got an appartment in Basel?

Any thoughts greatfully appreciated.
KR
R
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  #2  
Old 06.02.2009, 10:43
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

Simple answer.... you dont need a permit , because you are not a resident.


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Hi,
I am confused - easily done I know - about what sort of permit, if any, I need.
I (EU citizen) am contracted to a UK company who have a contract with an American company to support a Swiss company (in Basel). I live in England, commute to Switzerland every week, work i Basel for typically 4 days, stay in a hotel and commute back again. I have been doing this for several months and am likely to be asked to continue to do this for at least another 6 months and maybe 12.

I have no contract with a Swiss company so I cant get them to sponsor me.

From what I have read, the International permit seems nearest but this involves withholding tax and as I dont get paid in Switzerland, that seems a non-starter.
* Do I actually need a permit at all?
* If I dont get one, is someone likely to appear in the middle of the night and drag me off to prison.
* Would the situation change if I got an appartment in Basel?

Any thoughts greatfully appreciated.
KR
R
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  #3  
Old 06.02.2009, 10:45
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

* Do I actually need a permit at all?

probably. in ZRH there is a 'right to reside' in the kanton. I needed this when I commuted from Lausanne to ZRH similar to yours from UK. I suspect that in your case you need an G-permit (but I think these are only for DE, FR, IT, AT border workers) or perhaps an L?

* If I don't get one, is someone likely to appear in the middle of the night and drag me off to prison.

Middle of the night is possible, prison unlikely, assuming you have a valid EU passport!

* Would the situation change if I got an apartment in Basel?

Absolutely, and I would suspect that actually getting an apartment might be very difficult. If you find one willing to lease to you WILL have to register with the local commune and then you're in the system and will see what you get. The company you work AT in CH should be able to offer some sort of help!

bill
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  #4  
Old 06.02.2009, 11:01
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

As an EU citizens you don't need a permit if you're not working more than 3 months (a year) in the country! Furthermore, it's your companies task to get you the permit anyway so it'd be best to contact them!
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Old 06.02.2009, 11:02
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

Just to avoid confusion, your an EU resident working in Switzerland for a foreign company, you are not resident here, except in a Hotel, for 4 days a week. YOU DO NOT NEED A PERMIT....
No one is ever likely to come and take you anywhere for not registering. If you wish get an appartement here then you will have to prove residency and show an employment contract. If your company is paying the Hotel bill , then why bother. You really have nothing to worry about in your circumstances at present .
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Old 06.02.2009, 11:12
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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Just to avoid confusion, your an EU resident working in Switzerland for a foreign company, you are not resident here, except in a Hotel, for 4 days a week. YOU DO NOT NEED A PERMIT....
No one is ever likely to come and take you anywhere for not registering. If you wish get an appartement here then you will have to prove residency and show an employment contract. If your company is paying the Hotel bill , then why bother. You really have nothing to worry about in your circumstances at present .
Oh I wouldn't say quite that you see. 4 days a week for a whole year is likely to put you over the 183 days a year tax residency treshold (and the fact that you stay at a hotel is rather irrelevant...). Not to mention the "working without a permit" bit.

Nothing to worry - I'd be a short seller of that if it were a stock.
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Old 06.02.2009, 11:19
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

I bow to yoru superior knowledge Shorrock, however he is not resident here, and his taxes are paid at source , i,e the UK. If this continues over the threshold then yes he needs to contact his employer and address the situation.


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Oh I wouldn't say quite that you see. 4 days a week for a whole year is likely to put you over the 183 days a year tax residency treshold (and the fact that you stay at a hotel is rather irrelevant...). Not to mention the "working without a permit" bit.

Nothing to worry - I'd be a short seller of that if it were a stock.
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Old 06.02.2009, 11:30
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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I bow to yoru superior knowledge Shorrock, however he is not resident here, and his taxes are paid at source , i,e the UK. If this continues over the threshold then yes he needs to contact his employer and address the situation.
You probably missed the part where the OP said he has been doing this for several months already, hence he's very likely already over the treshold both in terms of work permit and fiscal considerations.

But feel free to prove me wrong.
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  #9  
Old 06.02.2009, 12:29
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

Thanks for the contributions.
(I forgot to add in the intro that, of course, I am a director of my little company which is contracted to the UK company which is contracted to the UK company which is contraacted tothe Swiss company. Real Mess!!!)

So, summary of the collective widwom to date.
No permit needed until I fall foul of some 183 day/year rule.
Is that the same principle as the UK (nights out of the country). If so its not a problem 'cos I do 3 nights a week (so 183 days = 61 weeks).
However, if its days . . . . . .
Anyone know the rule?
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Old 06.02.2009, 14:06
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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No permit needed until I fall foul of some 183 day/year rule.
Is that the same principle as the UK (nights out of the country). If so its not a problem 'cos I do 3 nights a week (so 183 days = 61 weeks).
However, if its days . . . . . .
Anyone know the rule?
Actually the permit is needed after three months. It's the tax liabilities that are governed by the 183 day rule.
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Old 06.02.2009, 15:36
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

hhhmmm. OK one at a time.
Tax Liabilities: I've never had this problem before working outside the UK and I've done it for 20 years (but never in Switzerland). But, in any event, how is 183 days defined? Is that 183 nights in Switzerland (as the UK definition) and if not, what is the definition or at least where do I find out?

Permit. We have Karlnmilk convinced that no permit is necessary (not resident in any way in Switzerland) and Shorrick Mk2 convinced that I do after 3 months (which came and went some time ago). Where can I find the definitive answer? Do I have to go see my local govt offices and just ask?

Surely there must be info on a web site somewhere?
TFAI
R
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  #12  
Old 06.02.2009, 15:50
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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Permit. We have Karlnmilk convinced that no permit is necessary (not resident in any way in Switzerland) and Shorrick Mk2 convinced that I do after 3 months (which came and went some time ago). Where can I find the definitive answer? Do I have to go see my local govt offices and just ask?
Article 5 al. 1 of the Free Movement Agreement specifies that a EU national (and /or firm) can freely work / provide services in Switzerland for a grand total of 90 days within a calendar year. Anything beyond that requires a permit (that would be art. 5 al. 2 lit (b) ).

Copy of the text here in French and here in German .

I'm sure the British guv'ment must have the English version online
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  #13  
Old 06.02.2009, 20:23
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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Just to avoid confusion, your an EU resident working in Switzerland for a foreign company, you are not resident here, except in a Hotel, for 4 days a week. YOU DO NOT NEED A PERMIT....
No one is ever likely to come and take you anywhere for not registering. If you wish get an appartement here then you will have to prove residency and show an employment contract. If your company is paying the Hotel bill , then why bother. You really have nothing to worry about in your circumstances at present .
If a person visits Switzerland on Business for more than 90 days in any one year they are required to have a permit. His employer the UK company needs to make an application for the visa.

Jim
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  #14  
Old 06.02.2009, 20:36
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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hhhmmm. OK one at a time.
Tax Liabilities: I've never had this problem before working outside the UK and I've done it for 20 years (but never in Switzerland). But, in any event, how is 183 days defined? Is that 183 nights in Switzerland (as the UK definition) and if not, what is the definition or at least where do I find out?

Permit. We have Karlnmilk convinced that no permit is necessary (not resident in any way in Switzerland) and Shorrick Mk2 convinced that I do after 3 months (which came and went some time ago). Where can I find the definitive answer? Do I have to go see my local govt offices and just ask?

Surely there must be info on a web site somewhere?
TFAI
R
Here is the URL you need: http://ch.vfsglobal.co.uk/index.aspx, note in the FAQ that you require a visa

Jim
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  #15  
Old 06.02.2009, 20:50
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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Actually the permit is needed after three months. It's the tax liabilities that are governed by the 183 day rule.
While the 183 day rule is the best know method used by the tax people to determine tax liabilities it is not the only one!!!

In the past the following has given rise to tax liabilities although it is not very common and both cases the person involved at lots of £££, $$$ or €€€ hence the motivation to go after them:

- Grandad visits a country for a few days each month over several years to be with his grand childern

- A person lived in a country for some years, moved abroad but kept their house in the country unrented. Then on a business trip was forced to change flights in the country.

Like I said these things are technically possible, but I doubt most of us need to worry about it <g>

Jim
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Old 11.02.2009, 11:28
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

hhhmmm but those examples relate to tipping over the 183 day rule or, more likey the "max 60 days" and "at no stage more than 1/6th cumulatively" rule

for the record, in my own case (the original quesition in this thread). the official view from the Swiss Embassy is:

"as a UK-citizen you can work in Switzerland WITHOUT a workpermit. This rule applies as long as your assignment does not exceed the duration of eight working-days in a row."
So I do not require visa, work permit or anything else

So congratulations to Karlnmik for getting it more or less right (right answer but without the 8 consecutive day rule)

KR

R
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  #17  
Old 11.02.2009, 11:55
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

well i saw the 8 day rule didnt apply to you .... so no need to mention it
good luck anyway
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Old 11.02.2009, 17:18
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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hhhmmm but those examples relate to tipping over the 183 day rule or, more likey the "max 60 days" and "at no stage more than 1/6th cumulatively" rule

for the record, in my own case (the original quesition in this thread). the official view from the Swiss Embassy is:

"as a UK-citizen you can work in Switzerland WITHOUT a workpermit. This rule applies as long as your assignment does not exceed the duration of eight working-days in a row."
So I do not require visa, work permit or anything else

So congratulations to Karlnmik for getting it more or less right (right answer but without the 8 consecutive day rule)

KR

R
I'd take that interpretation of "8 days in a row" with a pinch (extra-large size) since it's rather illegal to work 8 days in a row in Switzerland, exceptional circumstances nonwithstanding.

There you go from the horse's mouth, as it were.

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Die entsandten Arbeitnehmer, die eine Diesntleistung von mehr als 90 effektiven Arbeitstagen pro Kalenderjahr erbringen, müssen in Besitz einer Kurzaufenthaltsbewilligung oder einer Auenthaltsbewilligung sein.
I'm sure Karlnmik will have the latest details on this:

Quote:

Das Meldeverfahren nach Art 6 (EntsG; SR 823.20) ist obligatorisch für Entsendebetriebe die an insgesamt (nicht pro Mitarbeitenden) mehr als acht Tage pro Kalenderjahr in der Schweiz Einsätze erbringen (ununterbrochen oder tageweise)


Last edited by Shorrick Mk2; 11.02.2009 at 17:38.
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Old 11.02.2009, 17:39
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

Well I thought it was an interesting 'rule'. However, I have no reason to doubt the good lady at the Swiss embassy. She was given exactly the same brief as posted at the start of this thread.

And rest assured I have absolutely no intention of working 8 days in a row in Switzerland (or anywhere else for that matter). If there is any foundation in the rule my self-imposed limit of 4 days ought to be well in bounds

I have had a look at the two links you provided but my german is minimal and google translations are inevitably not up to the finer points.
Thanks for the interest
R
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Old 11.02.2009, 17:50
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Re: What sort of Permit, if any?

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I have had a look at the two links you provided but my german is minimal and google translations are inevitably not up to the finer points.
Thanks for the interest
R
I guess the eight day rule spelt out in the finer points, specifically in the latest quote (bolded) part is specified as either in a row or separately.

The bottom line being that once you're past eight days work (in a row or otherwise) you must make yourself known to the authorities. Once you're past 90 days work (in a row or otherwise) you're supposed to get a permit.

Maybe you ought to send the links to the embassy... but since it comes straight from the Zurich Work Permits office, i wouldn't discount it merely on a back of a lack of appropriate google translation.
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