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Old 18.05.2009, 19:42
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B For dependents resident in Switzerland

Could any one give me a tip as to whether parents (Non-EU) resident in
Bern Kanton, who are Pensioners (AHV) receive B Permits, under the
following Bullet point mentioned in this Forum?

"Aufenthaltbewilligung im Rahmen des Familiennachzugs"

The MIDI has rejected such an application on the basis of "perogative"
they hold on its issue.
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  #2  
Old 19.05.2009, 13:18
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

I don't really understand what it is you're asking. It would have been easier to help if perhaps you'd posted a link so we can see what you're looking at. At a guess I would say you've been looking at family reunification rules for EU citizens which give Eu citizens the right to get a permit for spouses, children and parents. Sorry can't be more helpful. Maybe you could explain your circumstances a bit more fully.
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Old 19.05.2009, 13:44
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

Sorry for not being clearer. It is a straight-forward question. Say I am a
Non-EU person and wish to have a dependent, over 70 yrs. brought here and cared by me, being parent - Is a B Residence Permit available for such a case?
Thanks for any comments
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  #4  
Old 19.05.2009, 13:57
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

Since you are non EU, you do not have the automatic right that EU citizens have to bring your dependent parents into the country under the family reunification rules. The canton may, however, give you a permit for your parent but it is at their total discretion whether they accept or reject your application. So in other words, it is worth making the application but there is no guarantees that you will be successful. Good luck.
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Old 19.05.2009, 14:06
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss [NO NO NO]

...and don't forget on you application, the country is
SWITZERLAND...
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Old 19.05.2009, 15:19
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

Related to this question -the MIDI interprets that the "EL" part of an
AHV Pension is a "Social Benefit" - the amount being paid from State
Funds (or is it Kanton funds) and therefore the recepient is considered
to be a "Social Beneficiary" - not entitled to a B Permit as he/she is not
self-standing!. Is this interpretation legally valid - any thoughts.
Thanks
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Old 19.05.2009, 15:47
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

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Related to this question -the MIDI interprets that the "EL" part of an
AHV Pension is a "Social Benefit" - the amount being paid from State
Funds (or is it Kanton funds) and therefore the recepient is considered
to be a "Social Beneficiary" - not entitled to a B Permit as he/she is not
self-standing!. Is this interpretation legally valid - any thoughts.
Thanks
Not only it is valid, but further since you need the EL income to attain a minimum survivable income, it is very much likely that your application would anyhow be rejected on the grounds of insufficient income to ensure decent subsistence for both you and the person you wish to invite, had in fact the interpretation not been valid.
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Old 19.05.2009, 17:29
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

To explain further, the recepient is self-standing and he himself has not
been placed on B from the present F - on the basis of the "EL" part being
a "Social Benefit" of the State! The exact question is, can B Permit be
denied to the receipient of AHV Pension of 3953.- p.m. for the reason that he is drawing a major "EL" part to enhance the low AHV?
Has such an interpretation been used to deny a B Permit to anyones
knowledge, I wonder.
Is there not a "hardship" basis for B.
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Old 19.05.2009, 18:17
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

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To explain further, the recepient is self-standing and he himself has not
been placed on B from the present F - on the basis of the "EL" part being
a "Social Benefit" of the State! The exact question is, can B Permit be
denied to the receipient of AHV Pension of 3953.- p.m. for the reason that he is drawing a major "EL" part to enhance the low AHV?
Has such an interpretation been used to deny a B Permit to anyones
knowledge, I wonder.
A precondition to issuing a B permit is financial independence, which obviously you do not enjoy as you need state subsidies to compensate your low retirement income... .

Quote:
Is there not a "hardship" basis for B.
No.
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Old 20.05.2009, 08:27
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B For dependents resident in Switzerland

In the above case, the applicant made an Appeal, where it was decided
that the claim for B was sufficiently justified. However MIDI was
apparently piquied by the Order when they were asked to repeal their
denial of B. Further when the initial B was rejected, it was on only
the standard of Language (HEKS A1) at the age of 74 yrs! At this stage
the "EL" quantum was not mentioned.

If "EL" as you state is taken into consideration, almost all widows (say Non EU) getting the full "EL" are NOT entitled to B on the principle you state. Any comments Sir. Thanks
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Old 20.05.2009, 09:17
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

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In the above case, the applicant made an Appeal, where it was decided
that the claim for B was sufficiently justified. However MIDI was
apparently piquied by the Order when they were asked to repeal their
denial of B. Further when the initial B was rejected, it was on only
the standard of Language (HEKS A1) at the age of 74 yrs!
I think your understandable wish to obtain a permit makes you have a biaised view on things.

Age is irrelevant - a claim *is* justified as long as the claimant has spent more than five years in Switzerland, however AuG art. 84 al.5 that regulates the issuance of a B permit for temporarily admitted persons such as yourself states very clearly that integration (i.e. language) is one of the points to be assessed - and this regardless of age...

Quote:
At this stage
the "EL" quantum was not mentioned.
You do not say who "ordered" MIDI (whatever that is, maybe you can explain) to repeal its denial of your permit, however it is not the denial as a whole but rather the denial based on language grounds... and most likely if such an "appeal" exists, most likely the judge decided the language reasons were not satisfactory and required the "MIDI" to re-examine your dossier, which doesn't preclude an eventual denial on financial grounds... especially as the integration benchmark is subjective and the financial benchmark is objective (and clearly spelled out as such in the law).

Considering it is a sequential process and the decision on integration comes before the assessment of financial resources, i'd say it's pretty much normal. They could have stated this at the beginning but the fact that they have not does not invalidate the decision.

Quote:
If "EL" as you state is taken into consideration, almost all widows (say Non EU) getting the full "EL" are NOT entitled to B on the principle you state. Any comments Sir. Thanks
Widowship contributions are not considered part of EL (or complementary contributions for the sake of those readers without the same mastery of german abbreviations you enjoy...) for the very good reason that they are based on a different legal principle and are funded differently... So in short my comment is that your remark above is wrong.
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Last edited by Shorrick Mk2; 20.05.2009 at 12:37.
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  #12  
Old 21.05.2009, 11:51
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

In this case, "Ergänzungsleistungen" or EL for short (Supplementary Benefits, (Pillar 1)as part of the AHV Pension (Pillar 2) to make up the
OASI (Old Age Security Insurance) is derived from the Insurance cover, the the premium for which was met in keping with its Regulations during the F holders 15 yrs stay in Swiss - but you consider it as State funded
Benefit and therefore he is a dependent upon the State for Income? The
Swiss Constitutional position might differ from that? A denial of
B on this ground appears to be sheer discrimination. Am I being biased?

You know best how and why these interpretations are made. The best of
EF is sought to my advantage, please. Thanks in advance of any comment.
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Old 22.05.2009, 15:03
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Re: B For dependents resident in Swiss

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A precondition to issuing a B permit is financial independence, which obviously you do not enjoy as you need state subsidies to compensate your low retirement income... .
No.
I am told that a Federal Court Ruling exists that "EL" in the case of
Foreigners is not considered as "aid" - I wonder if my information is
correct and is opposed to your comment.
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Old 22.05.2009, 22:50
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

Not thinking of complementary contributions as aid would be a strange concept.

Maybe you are thinking of this case (German article)? It states that a German grandmother was granted a residence permit because even though her German rent doesn't cover what were calculated to be her minimal living expenses, this is irrelevant because her relatives made themselves liable to support her with the remaining part of the expenses. So she won't need complementary contributions.

Your own complementary contributions have been calculated to match the needs for the minimal expenses. I think you can't dispose of them to support a third person.
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Old 23.05.2009, 14:56
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

Will it be correct to aruge that this so-called "aid" arises out of
INSURANCE, which has a minimum period for valid contributions - 10
yrs. (5 yrs for Refugees?). The Benefits arising from such INSURANCE
is not "aid" but an independent Income - regulated to oher earning
conditions?
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Old 23.05.2009, 20:08
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

I think the contrary applies: This are expenses that are not covered by your conventional AHV/IV insurance. EL is not freely disposable income, it's here to support to what was calculated to be your minimal living expenses.

Last edited by Nathu; 24.05.2009 at 10:52.
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Old 24.05.2009, 09:00
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

It is arguable - you agree that "EL" is a part of AHV/IV Insurance - and the "EL" is adjustable to suit other levels. Therefore "EL" by itself is not an "Aid" Benefit under normal "Social Benefits". The latter is Funded separately and Kanton regulated?.
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Old 24.05.2009, 15:12
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

How can I explain this further? EL is as far away from self-sufficiency as you can go. You can't use it to support other persons because it is calculated to match your living expenses. It is not calculated separately from AHV/IV. It is designed to fill the gap between AHV/IV and what the canton has defined to be the minimal life standard. EL is not "adjustable" to suit other levels, it is always adjusted automatically to bring you, and you alone, to your minimal life standard/income.
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Old 25.05.2009, 09:11
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

Sir,
I accept all your kind explanations, as far as it goes to "provide for
another dependent".
May I continue by asking if this applicant is an F Permit Holder, can this principle be used to deny him a B Permit, as "EL" falls within State "Aid" and the applicant for B Permit is not "self-standing"?
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Old 25.05.2009, 09:24
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Re: B For dependents resident in Switzerland

It is my understanding that several factors may influence the decision to give a B permit but I'll quietly take a step back and let Shorrick or somebody else familiar with the matter answer this one...
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