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  #101  
Old 26.12.2006, 20:42
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

DOH!!! Have just done some more reading.

I think I was supposed to have also sent a copy of EVERYTHING to the Office fédéral des Migration, too!

Need to check that, too - while I'm down at the Service de l'état civil et des naturalisations requesting my "civil instruction" documentation. Surely, they'll let me make copies of my file.

Ok, screw my headstart...looks like I took off running without tying up my track shoes!
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  #102  
Old 26.12.2006, 23:56
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

I have to admit that I didn't read all the posts in this thread - but there seems to be a lot of confusion concerning the different kinds of civil duty Swiss men and women are obliged to do, so I'll try to summarize the main points here to the best of my knowledge:

1. Army duty: every Swiss male has to join the army at age 19 (or a bit later, if you're in school when you turn 19). Naturalized Swiss citizens STILL have to join the army if they're 25 or younger at the time they're naturalized. If someone is unfit to serve, he has to pay 2% of his annual income as some sort of punishment (this will be raised significantly in 2008). That fee has to be paid from age 20 to age 30. Army duty ends when a man turns 34.

2. Zivildienst: instead of joining the army, it's possible to apply for "Ziviler Ersatzdienst" (alternative service). Up to the present date, alternative service takes 1.5x as long as Army duty. Also, the applicant has to prove in front of a committee that he has moral issues that prevent him from serving in the Army. This is not an easy thing to do.

3. Zivilschutz (not the same thing as Zivildienst!): civil protection service - pretty much the same thing as in England, but not voluntary. If someone is physically or psychologically unfit for military duty, he is assigned to Zivilschutz. People may also be assigned to Zivilschutz, even though they are older than 25 at the time they are naturalized. For each day of civil protection service, 3% can be deducted from the annual army duty replacement fee. Unlike army duty (which ends at age 34), Zivilschutz doesn't end until you're 40. Zivilschutz used to be a theoretical term for most people who were assigend to it as there were too many serving in this branch and most people were never called to duty. Unfortunately, this has changed over the last couple of years - now the whole thing is organized pretty much like the military service and involves several weeks of basic training, an annual repetition course of up to two weeks plus several days of active duty and, depending on your allocation, several days of training per year.
Active duty can consist of anything from organizing sports events to shovel snow off railroad tracks in winter.
I had to (painfully) find out that Zivilschutz sucks more than army duty for two reasons: 1. you're serving much longer and 2. because each day served only counts as 3% towards the army replacement fee, you generally still end up paying large junks of the latter although you may have had several assignments each year.

4. Feuerwehr (fire brigade): every Swiss (male AND female) is required to do that. If you don't want to, however, you can get out by paying a replacement fee. That's usually about 50 Fr. per annum, but can be up to 2% of your annual income if you live in a community that's anal about this.
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  #103  
Old 27.12.2006, 00:10
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
...If someone is unfit to serve, he has to pay 2% of his annual income as some sort of punishment (this will be raised significantly in 2008). That fee has to be paid from age 20 to age 30. Army duty ends when a man turns 34.
Actually, that's not true. You pay until you're 34, not 30. My (Swiss) husband had to pay through age 34.

Quote:
3. Zivilschutz (not the same thing as Zivildienst!): civil protection service - pretty much the same thing as in England, but not voluntary. If someone is physically or psychologically unfit for military duty, he is assigned to Zivilschutz.
Actually, you *can* be assigned to Zivilschutz, but you don't have to be. When we moved from Zurich to Basel, my husband tried to get a Zivilschutz assignment but never did.

Quote:
4. Feuerwehr (fire brigade): every Swiss (male AND female) is required to do that. If you don't want to, however, you can get out by paying a replacement fee. That's usually about 50 Fr. per annum, but can be up to 2% of your annual income if you live in a community that's anal about this.
News to my husband, who has never been approached or had to pay a fee.
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  #104  
Old 27.12.2006, 09:01
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

>Actually, that's not true. You pay until you're 34, not 30. My (Swiss)
>husband had to pay through age 34.

that changed in 2006 - have a look at http://www.bevoelkerungsschutz.admin...chtersatz.html


>Actually, you *can* be assigned to Zivilschutz, but you don't have to be. >When we moved from Zurich to Basel, my husband tried to get a >Zivilschutz assignment but never did.

that, too, changed in 2006. You can probably still be lucky and slip through the cracks but Zivilschutz isn't some sort of voluntary service anymore - it's mandatory for anyone who hasn't served at least 100 days in the Army after 2005. If you did your 100 days and were released before the end of 2005, you're still automatically assigned to Zivilschutz. Some cantons haven't transferred Zivilschutz control from the communities to the central administration yet - but once that has happened everywhere, even those who hadn't been called to active duty before, will be.
My brother in law never got an assignment until he was 32 - since then, he's been called up every year.

>News to my husband, who has never been approached or had to pay a >fee.

Have a look at your last tax bill - the Feuerwehr-Ersatz is usually listed on the bill for community tax. Larger communities sometimes don't actively approach their citizens because they either have a professional fire brigade or they have too many volunteers already. But the replacement fee is still due and comes as part of the tax bill.

where I have been inaccurate, though: the military replacement fee is 3%, not 2% of your annual taxable income and you get a 4% (not 3%) deduction for each day served in civil protection.
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  #105  
Old 29.12.2006, 18:21
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
I think I was supposed to have also sent a copy of EVERYTHING to the Office fédéral des Migration, too!

Need to check that, too - while I'm down at the Service de l'état civil et des naturalisations requesting my "civil instruction" documentation. Surely, they'll let me make copies of my file.
Update:
I went down to the Service de l'état civil et des naturalisations and asked if I was supposed to have contacted the Office fédéral des Migration.

No! Because I turned my file in in person, they take care of it for me.

Everything appears to be in order. I just have to wait to be contacted for some kind of interview. I will be expected to chat about Swiss life, prove that I watch the news and read the paper and am up to date on recent Swiss-related subjects. There will be no test on "civil instruction" as I am completing facilitated naturalization. Yay!
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  #106  
Old 29.12.2006, 18:56
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
I'd better get organised.
FWIW Facilitated is purely Federal IIRC - so it should take the same amount of (long) time
Come on Lob I would have expected better - not true

The **decision** is made at the federal level, but checks are made at communal and kantonal levels which "of course" take varying (wildly) lengths of time. It can take a "while" as you so rightly say.

richard
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  #107  
Old 29.12.2006, 19:45
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

I've got the application ready to go...awaiting only on employment.

Not for want of trying.
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  #108  
Old 30.12.2006, 10:12
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
awaiting only on employment.

Not for want of trying.
Hang in there, Bub! You have so much to offer. Destiny is just taking a little time picking who deserves you most!
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  #109  
Old 30.12.2006, 11:22
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Thanks Carrie. Although out of work for 7 months now, I have only had my Zeugnis for 2 months, so for the first 5 months I was severely disadvantaged. Christmas/New Year hasn't helped. Even now the rejections take 3 weeks to come back instead of 3 days, so I am obviously making progress .
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  #110  
Old 05.03.2007, 13:01
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

I have been a busy little chick lately, so I am just now getting around to my good news - I had my interview for naturalization on 19 February and it went very well!

There were two women there - one for the questioning and one who was typing every little word down as we spoke. It was done in French, and I was asked all sorts of things:

-how I met my Swiss partner
-if I have any intention of divorcing him
-my current professional activity, hobbies and interests
-my entire education starting with elementary school onwards
-when I came to live in Switzerland
-what are some current things going on in Swiss news
-some Swiss geographical questions
-some Swiss cultural and linguistic questions
-some Swiss holidays and food questions

It lasted over an hour and a half, and I felt really good afterwards, so I think it went very well. The questioner was young and friendly and very reassuring. I was allowed to sign at the end with the pen I had in my hand (green ink), which blew me away! She said, "go on ahead, it's pretty!"

It's not everyday that someone lets you sign in green ink here, so I can only deduce that I must have been a real charmer.

I recommend (to anyone) that you go in with a very open attitude. The questions must be answered, so clamming up and making it difficult will not serve your purposes.

Try to relax and smile and accentuate the positive parts of your life in Switzerland. HTH, Everyone!
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  #111  
Old 05.03.2007, 13:54
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Carrie,

I don't understand if you are married to a Swiss why you had to have an interview or meet anyone. I did it simply by filling in a form.

Also did they tell you cost?
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  #112  
Old 05.03.2007, 14:07
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
With regards to Zivilschutz which they won't want a "new" Swissie to do, the "new" Swissie would not want to do and the "new" Swissie would not want to pay to not do.

I hear 40 is good....anyone got experience in this matter?
Since January 2006, the age at which you don't have to pay anymore is 30 (actually it can be almost 31, depending on when during the year you were born).

Zivilschutz (which isn't even remotely the same thing as Zivildienst, btw.) SUCKS. Been there, hated it. Zivilschutz used to be ok - they'd only call you up every other year or so for a couple of days. Now, after the reform, it's comparable to military duty in terms of time you spend there. There's a one-week repetition course and one to two active-duty assignments every year which usually take somewhere between 2 and 7 days.

You're required to do Zivilschutz until you're 40, but from 30 on you don't have to pay anymore if you don't go. So make sure you don't have to go when you're over 30.
But even if you're not 30 yet: for each day in Zivilschutz only 4% is deducted from the sum you have to pay for not doing military service or Zivildienst. You'll have to find out for yourself if that's worth it for you. You should also take into consideration the extra food, beer etc. you'll need during your Zivilschutz assignments - which can cost more than what you get out of it...
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  #113  
Old 05.03.2007, 14:17
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
Carrie,

I don't understand if you are married to a Swiss why you had to have an interview or meet anyone. I did it simply by filling in a form.

Also did they tell you cost?
Abfab,

I'm sure that times have changed since you did yours. Naturalization in my mother-in-law's day (70's) was even automatic. Spouses got a passport right away.

The meeting I had was simply "to get to know me" from what I was told. They are more careful these days who they give the passport to. No info on the cost just yet, but I'd better ask so I can start saving!

When all comes through (could be a year on up to 18 months from now) I am going to sing my feelings!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9esv_US1A

Home is where you make it and I've made it here! It's only a matter of time and patience now - two things Switzerland is famous for!
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  #114  
Old 05.03.2007, 14:35
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
Abfab,

I'm sure that times have changed since you did yours. Naturalization in my mother-in-law's day (70's) was even automatic. Spouses got a passport right away.

The meeting I had was simply "to get to know me" from what I was told. They are more careful these days who they give the passport to. No info on the cost just yet, but I'd better ask so I can start saving!

When all comes through (could be a year on up to 18 months from now) I am going to sing my feelings!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX9esv_US1A

Home is where you make it and I've made it here! It's only a matter of time and patience now - two things Switzerland is famous for!
Nothing has changed since 1995. Facilitated naturalisation(http://www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=141&L=3).

But it seems that your community are exercising their right to interview you. Mine didn't: I just filled in the form, sent it the Bern, had it acknowledged 3 weeks later and then after 14 months was asked to show my contract of employment at the local police station. Two weeks after that the postman turned up with a COD envelope from Bern and demanded CHF310 - and that was it - I was suddenly Swiss...
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  #115  
Old 05.03.2007, 15:08
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Well done Carrie!

Quote:

...Naturalization in my mother-in-law's day (70's) was even automatic. Spouses got a passport right away.

....
Not quite correct. Female spouses got it upon marriage, male spouses had to wait 12 years....
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  #116  
Old 05.03.2007, 15:13
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Well, being on active duty in Zivilschutz (Rescue pioneer) in my last year (turning 40 in April), here's the juice:

- Zivilschutz is mandatory for every able-bodied Swiss not in the military or Zivildienst (conscientious objector etc.), up to the age of 32 if not assigned active duty (but still assigned), up to 40 if assigned active duty.

- Wehrpflichtersatzsteuer (military tax) is only due if you're assigned and don't spend the required number of days (used to be 10, now much higher) until you've completed the year you turned 32.

- Wehrpflichtersatzsteuer is 2% of taxable income.

- If you're a new Swiss not having completed your 28th year on this blue rock, you're called up for military induction tests.

- If you pass, you get a choice between Army and Zivilschutz (that's new).

- If you don't pass, you're assigned to Zivilschutz if you haven't completed your 32nd year on this blob. (We have asthmatics, believe it or not)

- You're over 32, you're scot-free: no duty, no tax.

- Non-passers get an induction day, introducing all the fun stuff we do at Zivilschutz and telling you "unless you're motivated, don't bother; if you don't speak German, don't bother; you have two left hands, don't bother".

Big moment: muslims, orthodox Jews and most Tamils got up to leave (don't call me racist, been there, seen it with me own eyes), most ex-Germans, Jugos, South Europeans oddly enough stayed. Those that left pay the full amount of Wehrpflichtersatzsteuer if they're under 32 years old.

- New: Basic Zivilschutz training now takes 3 weeks (wtf? They trained us oldtimers in 4 days flat, and a good job too), refresher are 4 days every year. This in contrast with military refresher training which is 3 weeks every OTHER year.

- During those 3 weeks your salary keeps running, you get 5 (five) franken a day pay and you're insured.

- Also, you can't be fired for having to fulfill your Zivilschutz or military duty.

- If a disaster happens (mudslides, flooding, avalanches etc.), you can be called up for up to 10 days of active duty per year ON TOP of the 4 days refresher. Pay, salary, insurance, not firable as above.

Those are the facts.

Now, as a former expat Swiss, returning at age 32 after 32 years abroad(remember that was before the 2005 reform taking effect in 2006), I was assigned Zivilschutz after an interview with the Kreiskommandant (sounds really nazi, doesn't it? )

I thought, why not, went to the mandatory induction day, liked the rescue pioneers (you do something useful there, Boy Scouts for grown-ups ), stayed, have now dug out 3 alpine villages (2 mudslides, 1 floodrelated), rebuilt passageways on hiking trails, cleared up storm damage (blowndown trees) threatening to turn into a juggernaut come the next rainstorm etc. in the last 7 years.

Me, I liked the experience. Heck, I still chuckle at the the disaster-stricken population gave us when they heard we were from Zurich.
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  #117  
Old 05.03.2007, 16:11
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

The interview was held at the Service de l'état civil et des naturalisations, not in my community.

Litespeed, thanks for the encouragement!
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  #118  
Old 05.03.2007, 16:44
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Quote:
Nothing has changed since 1995. Facilitated naturalisation(http://www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=141&L=3).

But it seems that your community are exercising their right to interview you. Mine didn't
AbFab, I think since you underwent the process the number of these type of naturalisations increased significantly, although the statistics seem to show they have peaked. I am lead to believe therefore, that the interviews are almost now mandatory, to ensure the integrity of the applicant.
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  #119  
Old 05.03.2007, 16:59
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

My British wife got interviewed by the Swiss consul in Manchester, a nice lady from Zurich. She had her very confused when she told her that one of the main reasons for her visits to Geneva was to watch football and ice hockey (all her Swiss references are football/hockey mates of mine...) and the interview was conducted in English. My wife can't speak much French but she understands it pretty well and is pretty at east with Swiss lifestyle and everyday life issue. Paperwork was kept to a minimum and the whole process, if not fast, was pretty stress-free.

A bit less than two years after sending the form, she got her letter confirming her status as a Swiss citizen which she celebrated by preparing a fondue...
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  #120  
Old 23.03.2007, 18:35
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Re: Military Age and Facilitated Naturalization Question

Well my Facilitated Naturalisation application has just taken a turn for the worst....

It seems that since a holiday in December last year my wife has been developing a romance with a "third person", a Brazilian national. This week she has fronted me with divorce papers... . It has been a big shock to me and I won't go into the details on this thread. Needless to say, the marriage is now D.O.A.

Today I sent a letter off to the Immigration department, as I am obliged to inform that the marriage is no longer stable. In the next few weeks I will probably be moving into my own place, so that in itself would also draw an obligation to notify the BFM.

Bottom line...my Naturalisation application is toasted. If I was an EU citizen I would not be so bothered, but being non-EU means that, if I wish to retain independent residency rights, then I must live and work in Switzerland for a long time to come (ie I lose the opportunity for short-term expat jobs elsewhere, which in my industry would give me great career opportunities that don't exist here). I have invested a lot in my future here, and I am not prepared to throw that away just yet.

More on the divorce on one of the other "related" threads soon...
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