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Old 18.04.2006, 18:49
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Facilitated Naturalization [including obligations for males]

With regards to Zivilschutz which they won't want a "new" Swissie to do, the "new" Swissie would not want to do and the "new" Swissie would not want to pay to not do.

I hear 40 is good....anyone got experience in this matter?
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Old 18.04.2006, 21:08
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Becoming a female would also exempt you from all that rubbish
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Old 19.04.2006, 09:10
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Becoming a female would also exempt you from all that rubbish
Thats a thought Mark, although i reckon Lob'd rather pay or put up with it than go through the old monthly mahem.
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Old 19.04.2006, 10:19
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Becoming a female would also exempt you from all that rubbish
I'd cry sexual inequality but they only got the vote in 1973.
Caveman Society?!?
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Old 19.04.2006, 17:50
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Wow Carrie, whats your recipie?
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Old 19.04.2006, 18:00
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Hormonal fluctuations? Isn't that the friendly way of saying psychosis?

Anyway, back on topic before Mark tells you off
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Old 19.04.2006, 18:20
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Hormonal fluctuations? Isn't that the friendly way of saying psychosis?

Anyway, back on topic before Mark tells you off
Am I the only one who doesn't know what you're going on about...being Swissie and wanting to do it or not wanting to do it and paying and what????
Could you explain better what this thread is really about?

All I know so far is that there is some sort of plus side if you are a woman. I'd recommend it (becoming a woman), that's all I'm saying!
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Old 19.04.2006, 18:31
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Zivilschutz is army or what? Is 40 referring to age? I had no idea this was an issue for new Swissies.
Trying hard to understand this thread, Carrie
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Old 19.04.2006, 18:50
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Zivilschutz is army or what? Is 40 referring to age? I had no idea this was an issue for new Swissies.
Trying hard to understand this thread, Carrie
For the benefit of those from afar, I'll sum up in little words

The question is at what point taking a Swiss passport as second passport when you're a man not cost one arm and one leg - only real Swiss men can wear the uniform and the others get to do community service (or pay because they would rather have your money).

I have heard after 40 they don't bug you but would like to know if this is true.
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Old 19.04.2006, 19:18
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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For the benefit of those from afar, I'll sum up in little words

The question is at what point taking a Swiss passport as second passport when you're a man not cost one arm and one leg - only real Swiss men can wear the uniform and the others get to do community service (or pay because they would rather have your money).

I have heard after 40 they don't bug you but would like to know if this is true.
I didn't know "new Swissies" (as you so lovingly call them) are required to do the civil duty (or else pay for not doing it). My husband (a real Swiss) tried telling me once that I should join our village's firemen. Apparently, if your wife does the civil duty, you are exempt!

More options for you guys out there? Sounds easier than gender reassignment. So what are you blokes going to offer the wifies????

I'd personally reconsider if my husband's barter were fair enough!
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Old 19.04.2006, 20:10
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Hi Carrie,

If your husband is a typical Swiss (and it's also typically Swiss to claim that one isn't typically Swiss) he will tell you that military service, civil service or the joy of paying an extra 2% on top of your tax is "not that bad". The reality is that they know it is a pile of s**t, but if a filthy foreigner tries to point it out they will defend it to the end...

Try it and report back on your findings!

Getting a Swiss passport is not an easy thing to do, and I for one will never apply for one when the process is easier for me because I'm white, from the right country, etc. etc. When they change the law so that someone of another nationality has exactly the same chances as me then I'll think about it. Oh and they'd have to drop the price (which is considerable) and the obligations for miltary service and civil service.

Bottom line: It aint gonna happen. It's often not much fun being a foreigner here, but if you are a male under 40 it's less fun having 3 weeks per year of your life taken away from you. Oh but hang on - it's not that bad...

So if I commit a crime and I get 3 weeks of community service, I'll just tell everyone it's not that bad....

No thanks....
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Old 20.04.2006, 00:40
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Hi Mark,

You're having a good rant! If a woman did the same thing, she'd be called hormonal, or mad cow or whatever! Lob even suggested the word pyschosis earlier.

It is a known fact that people of any kind will generally try to defend what they are used to and what they've grown up with, because they believe it is right. People sometimes do this without even thinking of the fact that other people in other places do things differently.

I've had just about every argument possible with my husband - oh the joys of a bi-national marriage! I call it re-enacting the Swiss-American war. There never was one officially (right? You see, I'm American and our education system stinks!) I just like to pretend there was one and that we constantly re-enact it.

The topics range from ice or no ice in your Coke, to using public transport versus the car, me crossing invisible boundaries with my shoes on in the house to ...you name it.

One might think my husband is a typical Swiss in that he can often defend Swiss thinking, but I don't think he would in the case you're talking about. I have a lot of black family members and it has never been a problem with my husband. Plus, his own mother is Czech - so he grew up with the typical discrimation associated with that.

There was a vote just last year concerning the Eastern European countries and their rights to move and work within CH as easily as other EU countries. What the hell? Why should they be any different? Oh I forgot, communistic history makes them bad. Long live Swiss and their Ausländer prejudice!

I agree with you about having your reasons for not wanting the Swiss passport. I almost posted something recently in another thread about how it is to be white and pass for a Swiss. My white skin, blondish hair, green eyes are all ok with everyone....until I open my mouth and someone catches the accent in my French or German. But even then, I still see that I get preferential treatment over other foreigners. I don't feel good about it.

I have only been asked to show my permit once in 7 years in CH at the same time as my train or bus ticket. People of color have to have their permits ready at all times for any authority who might ask at any time! Even if they are just buying a pack of gum in a kiosk line.

There are so many things we cannot change in this world. I keep trying to accept that we can only control ourselves, not others. Your decision to not participate in evil, unfair practices (getting a Swiss passport) is you exercising the little amount of control you have. Can you still vote with just a C-permit where you live? I voted for the first time in my "commune" this year, but it was only to elect some people. I'm not sure if I can vote on other things or not. So far I haven't received anything else in the mail so I guess I'll see next time some initiatives come up if I get to vote on them. I've only had the C since December.

P.S. My husband hates the army service. I don't think he would mind the Swiss changing to a professional army (like the US) rather than an obligatory one. I'll confirm that with him, hopefully soon, when we're not "re-enacting the Swiss-American war."
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Old 20.04.2006, 09:46
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Quote:
I have only been asked to show my permit once in 7 years in CH at the same time as my train or bus ticket. People of color have to have their permits ready at all times for any authority who might ask at any time! Even if they are just buying a pack of gum in a kiosk line.
I've never been asked to show my permit, and I don't carry it as a matter of principle. After all, we are not living in Nazi Germany where people would be routinely stopped and asked for their papers. I don't carry my passport either.

As a matter of fact I lost my permit almost a year ago, and haven't bothered to report it the police and go through the process of applying for one. I kind of see it like this - A Swiss doesn't have to prove their nationality to a policeman, so why should I? They have a record in their computer that I am not illegal, so that is good enough to me.

I find the idea of being asked for a permit at the same time as a bus ticket morally reprehensible. Whether a ticket inspector has such powers is questionable, and if the dark skinned fellow can't produce one what would the bus inspector do? Call the police as well as throwing him off the bus? I would refuse to show it to such a person as a matter of principle. But as you pointed out - it is not likely to happen to us.

As for voting... That won't happen for me. There are very few places in CH (like 2 cantons) where people with C permits can vote in local elections. We have another thread on this somewhere.
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Old 20.04.2006, 14:30
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

Quote:
I've never been asked to show my permit, and I don't carry it as a matter of principle. After all, we are not living in Nazi Germany where people would be routinely stopped and asked for their papers. I don't carry my passport either.

As a matter of fact I lost my permit almost a year ago, and haven't bothered to report it the police and go through the process of applying for one. I kind of see it like this - A Swiss doesn't have to prove their nationality to a policeman, so why should I? They have a record in their computer that I am not illegal, so that is good enough to me.

I find the idea of being asked for a permit at the same time as a bus ticket morally reprehensible. Whether a ticket inspector has such powers is questionable, and if the dark skinned fellow can't produce one what would the bus inspector do? Call the police as well as throwing him off the bus? I would refuse to show it to such a person as a matter of principle. But as you pointed out - it is not likely to happen to us.

As for voting... That won't happen for me. There are very few places in CH (like 2 cantons) where people with C permits can vote in local elections. We have another thread on this somewhere.
Hi Mark,

Just thought I would point out some "inaccuracies" in your statements above...

A Swiss is obliged at all times to carry a Personalausweiss which is more or less the same as the driving licence in appearance and size. If they cannot produce it it is an offence. You and I as foreigners are also obliged to produce identification on request but you might be interested to know that your driving licence which you no doubt have in your wallet will suffice. An inspector on a bus or tram has no legal right to ask for anything other than proof of payment for the journey but a train inspector, a customs guy or a policeman do have this right! And incidentally the right of official arrest...

Oh and as a by the way...

Your permit must be reported missing immediately! And the local authorities can request its production at any time.

Richard
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Old 20.04.2006, 14:47
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Hi Mark,

Just thought I would point out some "inaccuracies" in your statements above...

A Swiss is obliged at all times to carry a Personalausweiss which is more or less the same as the driving licence in appearance and size. If they cannot produce it it is an offence. You and I as foreigners are also obliged to produce identification on request but you might be interested to know that your driving licence which you no doubt have in your wallet will suffice. An inspector on a bus or tram has no legal right to ask for anything other than proof of payment for the journey but a train inspector, a customs guy or a policeman do have this right! And incidentally the right of official arrest...
Ok, well I carry my driver's licence. Even though this card has unlimited validity and no address written on it. But if they accept that - fine.

Quote:
Oh and as a by the way...

Your permit must be reported missing immediately! And the local authorities can request its production at any time.Richard
Or what? I'm sure it is a tragic situation for them if I can't be bothered to report it as lost, but what does it mean for me?
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Old 20.04.2006, 16:33
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Or what? I'm sure it is a tragic situation for them if I can't be bothered to report it as lost, but what does it mean for me?
Umm, if your lost permit were to be in anyway misused, you might find that, although being innocent, you will have a lot of explaining to do. I doubt your above explanations will suffice.
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Old 20.04.2006, 19:12
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

The first time I saw this blatant discrimination in action, I was actually talking to an African man in the train. I went through the motions of digging my B permit out, once it was requested. I gave the controller confused looks and asked him why. But I understood only too late that the ticket controller had only meant for the black guy to produce his and he could give a care less about mine.

Needless to say, there was an uncomfortable pause after that. Both I and the African were embarrassed.

I managed to bring up the subject of ZivilSchutz with my husband at lunch.....and.....drumroll........

He says it's not that bad! So does that make him a typical Swiss, then?

I have to agree with him that it's not too bad if we look at the types of things you might be asked to do, which are pretty humanitarian, such as helping out when there are floods, natural catastrophes and so on. For those men who get Swiss citizenship, do they let you choose what type of service you would have to engage in? I would hope so.

During my husband's basic military training his troop had to dig out the town of Brig - he has the pictures somewhere showing the mud waist-high or higher. He enjoyed it a lot more than polishing his boots and making his bed and running around doing other senseless army things. He also has a friend (another real Swiss) who is exempt from military duty since he is on his village's firemen's squad.

Last edited by Carrie; 20.04.2006 at 19:36.
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Old 20.04.2006, 21:29
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

If I ever get that far, the first thing I will do is find out which Zivilschutz office is responsible for my area. I will send them registered correspondence expressing my desire to perform all required Zivildienst, as I would rather do it than pay for my absence. I would be interested to know what the reply would be. If they sent a bill, then I would have good grounds to contest it.
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Old 20.04.2006, 22:26
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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If I ever get that far, the first thing I will do is find out which Zivilschutz office is responsible for my area. I will send them registered correspondence expressing my desire to perform all required Zivildienst, as I would rather do it than pay for my absence. I would be interested to know what the reply would be. If they sent a bill, then I would have good grounds to contest it.
Thatta boy! Never let 'em get the best of you! I admire your spunk! (as in spirit or mettle, not the Sex and the City definition!)
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Old 20.04.2006, 23:38
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Re: Passport for blokes: when's good to do so?

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Thatta boy! Never let 'em get the best of you! I admire your spunk! (as in spirit or mettle, not the Sex and the City definition!)
Don't worry, I am unfortunately old enough to have interpreted "spunk" in its original and intended definition.

But I have yet to get that far. Out of interest, what is the difference? how long does it normally take a "european" to have a citizenship application processed, and how much longer for "others"?
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