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Old 04.03.2010, 15:55
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Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

Hi all.

A friend of mine would like to apply for a job in Switzerland, but the issue is that the company requires an EU-17 nationality (so that the application cannot be rejected by the cantonal authorities).
She belongs to the Greek minority of southern Albania, and the Greek state (for reasons that I don't feel like discussing cause I will end up swearing ) only provides those people with a Greek ID card but no passport, so they only have an Albanian one.

So the questions is, if she applies for any kind of a permit in Switzerland, will they consider her a Greek or an Albanian national?

Thanks in advance.
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  #2  
Old 05.03.2010, 02:43
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

Probably Albanian. However, there is an astronomical amount of Albanians/Kosovo people here, so it's not like it's impossible. I think you should get in touch with an Albanian community organization here and make your inquiry.
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Old 19.03.2012, 20:32
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

Hello
Could you please write some updates about this case? I fall under the same category. Actually my mother is a Greek passport holder and I have Greek ID card and I can apply for the Greek password, however I dont want to do so because I will have to do military service.
So I have Greek ID card and Albanian passport. My gf is German and we bother have decided to move to Switzerland. However Im reading that for NON-EU is not that easy to get the permit. Does this Greek ID card help at all?
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Old 19.03.2012, 21:22
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Hello
Could you please write some updates about this case? I fall under the same category. Actually my mother is a Greek passport holder and I have Greek ID card and I can apply for the Greek password, however I dont want to do so because I will have to do military service.
In which case you do not have the Greek citizenship then - so your Greek ID is useless.

Isn't there any citizenship information on this famous Greek ID card?!
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Old 19.03.2012, 21:31
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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In which case you do not have the Greek citizenship then - so your Greek ID is useless.

Isn't there any citizenship information on this famous Greek ID card?!
Lol the card is not that famous, it just gives the holder the possibility to stay in Greece as long as he/she wishes. The holder can also visit and stay for up to 90 days within the Schengen Area. The citizenship on the ID is Albanian.

You can read more about it here: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/countr...6a6a214,0.html
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  #6  
Old 21.03.2012, 01:42
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

I would imagine your citizenship would be what counts, a passport would be essential.
Confloozed may not realise that the large number of Albanians are a result of the past conflict in the region.
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Old 21.03.2012, 10:22
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Lol the card is not that famous, it just gives the holder the possibility to stay in Greece as long as he/she wishes. The holder can also visit and stay for up to 90 days within the Schengen Area. The citizenship on the ID is Albanian.

You can read more about it here: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/countr...6a6a214,0.html
Well there you go... you don't have a Greek ID card, you have a Greek resident permit. Apples and oranges.
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  #8  
Old 21.03.2012, 12:58
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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So I have Greek ID card and Albanian passport.
To both of you: do you have a Greek ID card, or a Greek residence permit?

If you have a Greek ID card, then you do have a Greek citizenship too. And if you're holder of an Albanian Passport, then you probably have dual citizenship.

In this case, the best would be to apply for a Greek Passport and then register in Switzerland under your Greek citizenship, as it will be more convenient for you (e.g. your Permit B will be valid for 5 years instead of 1), as an EU-17 citizen.

What is more, if you have a Greek ID (and thus citizenship) then you are obliged to do your military service because of your citizenship, irregardless of whether you have a passport or not.

---

If you have just a residence permit, then you don't have Greek citizenship, so you don't have any other choices than applying using your Albanian citizenship.
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  #9  
Old 23.03.2012, 21:44
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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To both of you: do you have a Greek ID card, or a Greek residence permit?

If you have a Greek ID card, then you do have a Greek citizenship too. And if you're holder of an Albanian Passport, then you probably have dual citizenship.
Sounds normal for every normal country, however Greece is not a normal country.

There is a Greek minority living in southern Albania and people from that minority that move to Greece get a Greek ID card but NOT the Greek citizenship and NOT a Greek passport.
The reason comes from decades ago, when Greek militants hoped there would be an excuse to attack Albania and get that Greek-inhabited region back.
Of course today the Greeks who still live there are really few.
So you might be asking yourself why we keep this policy? Well, because Greek politicians are afraid to change Greece. This country is the kind of country the elects their kind to important positions. If we get civilized we'll also vote as civilized people, and then they won't stand any chance.
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Old 23.03.2012, 21:55
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Sounds normal for every normal country, however Greece is not a normal country.
Yeah, tell me about it.

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There is a Greek minority living in southern Albania and people from that minority that move to Greece get a Greek ID card but NOT the Greek citizenship and NOT a Greek passport.
Dear Lords. How can you have a document which states "Hellenic Nationality" on it and NOT having it? Only in Greece...

In that case, I guess that the answer to the topic is clear: the Greek ID card has no real value and the Albanian passport is that which counts. I wouldn't recommend either using an ID of a country while not having Citizenship.
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  #11  
Old 23.03.2012, 21:59
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

What you mean by "hellenic"? "elliniki" so "greek"?
Odd, but of course one is greek then. The question is how to show and how to document it.
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  #12  
Old 23.03.2012, 22:12
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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What you mean by "hellenic"? "elliniki" so "greek"?
Yes. The official name of Greece is "Hellenic Republic", hence the "Hellenic" demonym. But the rest of the world, just uses "Greece", which derives from the latin Graecia.

Oddly enough, it goes vice-versa for Switzerland. While the rest of the world uses a derivative of "Suisse" to address the CH ... in Greece, a derivative from the latin Helvetia is used.


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Odd, but of course one is greek then. The question is how to show and how to document it.
In a normal country, an ID would be enough to prove your citizenship. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Swiss authorities could register you with "Greek" nationality with a Greek ID, whereas you may not have the nationality in the first place.
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Old 23.03.2012, 22:25
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Yes. The official name of Greece is "Hellenic Republic", hence the "Hellenic" demonym. But the rest of the world, just uses "Greece", which derives from the latin Graecia.

Oddly enough, it goes vice-versa for Switzerland. While the rest of the world uses a derivative of "Suisse" to address the CH ... in Greece, a derivative from the latin Helvetia is used.
...
My fear was that Greece would distinguish between "greek" and "hellenic" putting them in 2 different categories.


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In a normal country, an ID would be enough to prove your citizenship.
...
No, a passport or an ID is not considered a legal proof of citizenship or nationality in many countries (CH I don't know, but e.g. Germany for sure does not).

Because the status is one thing, a piece of paper or plastic gives a hint, but is no proof.

So imo good chances to be considered greek with this kind of strange ID.

But I'm no expert.
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Old 24.03.2012, 03:38
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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M
No, a passport or an ID is not considered a legal proof of citizenship or nationality in many countries (CH I don't know, but e.g. Germany for sure does not).

Because the status is one thing, a piece of paper or plastic gives a hint, but is no proof.

So imo good chances to be considered greek with this kind of strange ID.

But I'm no expert.
Hur hur... I can confirm you that whatever citizenship you have on your passport is taken at face value by Germany. Actually I'd be very interested in an official list of countries that do not recognise the citizenship associated with a passport (seriously?....)

And no "good chances to be considered Greek with this kind of strange ID" as it clearly mentions the citizenship of the bearer is not Greek... but never mind.
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Old 24.03.2012, 03:40
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Oddly enough, it goes vice-versa for Switzerland. While the rest of the world uses a derivative of "Suisse" to address the CH
Um, no, it doesn't.

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Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Swiss authorities could register you with "Greek" nationality with a Greek ID, whereas you may not have the nationality in the first place.
Yeah right. They'd probably engrave it on a stone tablet in cuneiform script too...
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Old 24.03.2012, 09:13
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Hur hur... I can confirm you that whatever citizenship you have on your passport is taken at face value by Germany. Actually I'd be very interested in an official list of countries that do not recognise the citizenship associated with a passport (seriously?....)
...
There are countries that distinguish between citizenship and nationality, and a passport might not be any legal proof of citizenship at all (if you speak German, here's the link; even an official deed is no legal proof):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staatsa...igkeitsausweis

And yes, Germany acknoledges "Germans without German citizenship" or at least did that until a couple of years ago.

I'm aware that we are tallking Switzerland, not Germany.
I do not know the situation in CH, a lawyer's advice could be of help.


Anyway, my point is that this is a complicated matter and that it is not true that Greece is one of the few strange countries not to link ID 100% with citizenship (so my hope is that Swiss authorities are aware of this issue when a person arrives from abroad).


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And no "good chances to be considered Greek with this kind of strange ID" as it clearly mentions the citizenship of the bearer is not Greek... but never mind.
It sounds odd, but citizenship can be a very abstract issue.

Any real expert here to give some further advice?
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Old 24.03.2012, 14:51
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

[QUOTE=lewton;726172]Hi all.
She belongs to the Greek minority of southern Albania, and the Greek state (for reasons that I don't feel like discussing cause I will end up swearing ) only provides those people with a Greek ID card but no passport, so they only have an Albanian one.
QUOTE]

Actually from a greek point of view this is considered a benefit to a special group of people living in another country under a different nationality to freely move, work, rent, open bank accounts..etc.. in Greece. They do not vote - they do not have the nationality.

From personal experience, it's a hard, long and expensive process to acquire a greek passport if you are not living there - even if you are greek and have proof of nationality and and and...

Last edited by ama; 24.03.2012 at 14:52. Reason: spelling
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Old 24.03.2012, 23:39
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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Oddly enough, it goes vice-versa for Switzerland. While the rest of the world uses a derivative of "Suisse" to address the CH ... in Greece, a derivative from the latin Helvetia is used.
We also call France "Gallia", which is what it was called before the Francs arrived there.
Similarly we use "Germania" for Germany, but in this case we are not alone (English and Italian are at least 2 more languages in which Deutschland is called this way).
And poor Scottish and Welsh, they don't exist for us. Most Greeks will use the term "Anglia" (England) referring to the whole UK. E.g. a mom could say that her son is studying in England and when you ask where exactly she will reply "Edinburgh"!!.

The reason is that we are trying to punish other people for calling us Greeks instead of Hellenes.
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Old 30.03.2012, 13:04
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

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It sounds odd, but citizenship can be a very abstract issue.
It can only if you make it that way. In Switzerland your citizenship / nationality is whatever your passport says.

Note your wikipedia link only discusses the issue of German staatsangehorigkeit - that in no way supports your claim that Germany doesn't necessarily recognise nationalities documented by foreign passports. Unless you can document instances where German authorities requested copies of foreign "Staatangehoerigkeitsausweis"es of course... which you can't because Germany can not decide on behalf of other states if a passport of state X is or not a legal proof of the holder's nationality... discussion which is irrelevant in a Swiss-related thread anyway.

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And yes, Germany acknoledges "Germans without German citizenship" or at least did that until a couple of years ago
No surprise, jus sanguinis is based on ethnical considerations... Switzerland also recognises "Swiss without Swiss citizenship" i.e. you can apply ex-post for Swiss citizenship through filiation... but again how is this relevant?!
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Old 30.03.2012, 13:35
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Re: Greek ID card / Albanian passport, what counts?

My husband has a Greek father and a French mother. He grew up in Greece, left for France when he was 17 for university and never lived in Greece since. He has a French passport and papers etc. So although he is Greek, this nationality is pretty worthless in Switzerland as he has no adult ID relating to this. Umm, what I am trying to say is your passport bears your nationality and the Greek ID(unless backed up with a Greek passport) is not really worth much towards this unfortunately.
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