Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Permits/visas/government  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 27.08.2007, 17:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,514
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
Misinterpreted?? It was blatently incorrect Richard, and no, it does not meet with my approval. It is incredibly vague. How about some references?
Are you assessing correctness based on your personal situation (which might or might not have been a fluke) or on a legal prescription?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 27.08.2007, 18:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
Misinterpreted?? It was blatently incorrect Richard, and no, it does not meet with my approval. It is incredibly vague. How about some references?
Pray tell me which bits are now wrong? References I have provided elsewhere in the thread.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 28.08.2007, 13:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Okay so although this is not the actual reason for the thread being written in the first place I thought it might be useful to explain the point that Mr. Bigfacthunt has being pressing on. This answer comes after legal consultation as to exactly why some people are entitled to unemployment benefit and others are not.

According to SR 837.0 Art 8 Unemployment benefit in Switzerland is available to all workers who meet a set of criteria:
1. Not working fully or partially
2. Has a countable unemployment
3. Living in Switzerland
4. Has finished school and has not reached official old age or drawn a pension
5. Has met the time limits on contributions
6. Is capable of being provided with a job
7. Attends controls as required.

1. refers to normal unemployment ie you are not working. If you had a 100% job and this was reduced to 50% but you still want to work the other 50% this is partial unemployment.
2. This refers to unemployment where you are not receiving money from elsewhere. For example you are given 12 months notice and although not working are still receivîng money or did receive a lump sum equivalent.
3. This is a specific reference to foreigners without a permit C living in Switzerland and requires ultimately that the foreigner has a fixed accommodation in Switzerland and meets the requirements to legally live there.
4. is obvious...
5. The time limit on contributions is that the person has worked for 12 months in the last two years. There are some complications here if you have claimed within the last two years or if you worked as self employed but lets say you must have 12 contributing months within the last two years - the two years starting on the day you register.
6. This is basically saying you are not mad or otherwise impossible to place in a job.
7. Basically that you sign on and go to courses or whatever as informed by your advisor.

So where is the catch. Why are some people not able to claim benefit. The reason is in point 3 and is perhaps where the point from TonyBhoy comes from. Unless you hold a C permit then you must hold the right permit. C permits holders and Swiss citizens are exempt from this point.

From SR 142.20 article 1a states that a foreigner can stay in Switzerland as long as he has a valid permit or does not need one(tourist).
Article 5 states that the permit is valid for a certain time and can be issued with conditions.
Article 9 states that the permit is invalid when the stated duration has expired as long as this is not extended.
Article 18 states that an extension of a permit for the purpose of claiming unemployment benefit can be given as lond as the conditions of unemployment are believable ie how you became unemployed. It further states that a permit can be issued with conditions and restrictions


And these together make the following:

A permit can be issued for a specified and fixed duration of in the case of an L permit 3,4,6 or 12 months with the option to extend to a maximum of 18 months and in the case of a B permit a maximum of 4 years renewable to up to 6 years.

These are permits of the type that are not long term residence permits but instead permits issued with restrictions. The restrictions being the permits are of fixed duration, attached to a single employer and for a specific project or task of given maximum duration( covered with the permit length). For an L permit this is for an EU citizen less than 12 months and for a non-EU citizen less than 18 months. A restricted B permit can *now* only be issued to a non-EU citizen.

Therefore if you hold an L permit this is for the duration of the contract of employment only and thereafter is no longer valid. Without a valid permit you are not entitled to be in Switzerland and therefore lose your entitlement to unemployment benefit. These permits are restricted not just to the employer but also specifically for the work to be done. If either of these is no longer fulfilled ie the project is finished and you are thus made unemployed your entitlement to the permit is invalid, entitlement to live in Switzerland similarly and thus your entitlement to unemployment is also invalid.

Similarly for a restricted B permit.

So why do they then take unemployment benefit? It is entirely possible that you work for a period of 12 months on your L permit and then because that was the period of the work it is about to run out. The company though thinks you are really good and would like to keep you. It does so by applying for an unlimited B which you are then given. 9 months down the line due to a change in business climate you are made unemployed and now want to claim unemployment benefit and stay here. If you had not paid in the first 12 months you would be no longer entitled to stay here and would get no benefit. Now since you actually contributed in the first 12 months you have 21 months worth of contributions and according to Article 18 §2a have a right to an extension for up to 2 years and of course unemployment benefit during that time...

So then what about those with an L permit that received unemployment benefit? The Swiss gave out L permits that contradicted the "rules of engagement" simple as that.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank Richard for this useful post:
  #44  
Old 28.08.2007, 16:43
Brownie's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ZG
Posts: 172
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Brownie has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
5. The time limit on contributions is that the person has worked for 12 months in the last two years. There are some complications here if you have claimed within the last two years or if you worked as self employed but lets say you must have 12 contributing months within the last two years - the two years starting on the day you register.
Thank you for the very informative post. I have a personal question, (although I'm afraid it is not relevant with the original post anymore), with regards to #5, would it matter if the contribution is based on a 20% employment for 12 months within the last two years, considering that the person is a full-time university student and have met otherwise all the requirements.(#'s 1-7)
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
Thank you for the very informative post. I have a personal question, (although I'm afraid it is not relevant with the original post anymore), with regards to #5, would it matter if the contribution is based on a 20% employment for 12 months within the last two years, considering that the person is a full-time university student and have met otherwise all the requirements.(#'s 1-7)
If the 12 months is met within the last two years that requirement would be met, however would requirement #3? I don't think so as the permit would be a student B which is issued for the purpose of studying and not for working although working is allowed. This seems to be a key point on the issuance of permits in that many are issued with specific restrictions attached to them - in this case restriction on maximum hours of work. Although I have never seen one I would guess that a student permit is attached 100% to the course taken and is valid until the course has been completed only. On completion a new permit will need to be applied for in order to stay.

Perhaps someone who has done the student route can comment on this. What happens at the end of the course? Do you need to apply for a new permit?
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,514
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post

Perhaps someone who has done the student route can comment on this. What happens at the end of the course? Do you need to apply for a new permit?
Yes. I've known people receiving letters kindly asking them to leave upon expiry of their student permit.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:37
Brownie's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ZG
Posts: 172
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Brownie has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
If the 12 months is met within the last two years that requirement would be met, however would requirement #3? I don't think so as the permit would be a student B which is issued for the purpose of studying and not for working although working is allowed. This seems to be a key point on the issuance of permits in that many are issued with specific restrictions attached to them - in this case restriction on maximum hours of work. Although I have never seen one I would guess that a student permit is attached 100% to the course taken and is valid until the course has been completed only. On completion a new permit will need to be applied for in order to stay.
In this case the student Permit B has been "upgraded" to Permit B as spouse of a Swiss citizen, so requirement #3 is also met. This implies though, that the contributions made during the student Permit B would not be counted as "proper" contribution to qualify for the unemployment benefits..
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:45
Lob's Avatar
Lob Lob is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: -
Posts: 7,795
Groaned at 42 Times in 37 Posts
Thanked 1,973 Times in 1,060 Posts
Lob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond reputeLob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
In this case the student Permit B has been "upgraded" to Permit B as spouse of a Swiss citizen, so requirement #3 is also met. This implies though, that the contributions made during the student Permit B would not be counted as "proper" contribution to qualify for the unemployment benefits..
Spouse of Swiss (like Sun of Sam) is worth mentioning at the time these questions are posed, Brownie
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:55
Brownie's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ZG
Posts: 172
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Brownie has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
Spouse of Swiss (like Sun of Sam) is worth mentioning at the time these questions are posed, Brownie
so sorry, still getting used to the new status
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 28.08.2007, 17:58
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Luzern currently
Posts: 2,565
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 720 Times in 373 Posts
Richard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond reputeRichard has a reputation beyond repute
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
In this case the student Permit B has been "upgraded" to Permit B as spouse of a Swiss citizen, so requirement #3 is also met. This implies though, that the contributions made during the student Permit B would not be counted as "proper" contribution to qualify for the unemployment benefits..
You see an implication I do not. There are simple conditions attached and if all are met then the applicant is entitled to unemployment benefit. Here there is no such thing as funny money ie if #3 is no longer a problem then as long as the other conditions have been met you have a right to your money. Condition #3 is generally the difficult one to get by as this is the one that specifically only applies to foreigners who are not Swiss spouses and not C Permit holders. Although it is not stated specifically under this article I would also be fairly sure that now the majority of EU people also have a right as seen under article 3. ie all those that are not just visiting...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Richard for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 28.08.2007, 18:07
Brownie's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: ZG
Posts: 172
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Brownie has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
You see an implication I do not. There are simple conditions attached and if all are met then the applicant is entitled to unemployment benefit. Here there is no such thing as funny money ie if #3 is no longer a problem then as long as the other conditions have been met you have a right to your money. Condition #3 is generally the difficult one to get by as this is the one that specifically only applies to foreigners who are not Swiss spouses and not C Permit holders. Although it is not stated specifically under this article I would also be fairly sure that now the majority of EU people also have a right as seen under article 3. ie all those that are not just visiting...
Thanks, now it's clear
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 29.10.2008, 02:11
muze7's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Uk now after Neuchatel
Posts: 1,241
Groaned at 3 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 158 Times in 102 Posts
muze7 is considered knowledgeablemuze7 is considered knowledgeablemuze7 is considered knowledgeable
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

I have a question on the situation Richard has so elaborately described.

After a 2-year B for scientific purposes (old-EU), I now got an L-permit with the purpose of finding a job. I am not claiming RAV. However, if I am eligible for unemployment benefits, that might help me extend my L-permit, if I understand Richard and Shorrick correctly and this permit extension would help me greatly while I apply for SNF funding.

The only thing I need to know therefore is, are people who received an L for the purpose of finding a job (after having had a probably restricted B), eligible for unemployment benefits, based on Richard's rule 3? Note all other rules of his list have been fulfilled so those are not a problem, the question is whether rule 3 is with this permit.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 29.10.2008, 19:28
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ZH
Posts: 1,185
Groaned at 15 Times in 13 Posts
Thanked 77 Times in 72 Posts
danny has earned some respectdanny has earned some respect
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

So why do they then take unemployment benefit? It is entirely possible that you work for a period of 12 months on your L permit and then because that was the period of the work it is about to run out. The company though thinks you are really good and would like to keep you. It does so by applying for an unlimited B which you are then given. 9 months down the line due to a change in business climate you are made unemployed and now want to claim unemployment benefit and stay here. If you had not paid in the first 12 months you would be no longer entitled to stay here and would get no benefit. Now since you actually contributed in the first 12 months you have 21 months worth of contributions and according to Article 18 §2a have a right to an extension for up to 2 years and of course unemployment benefit during that time...

So then what about those with an L permit that received unemployment benefit? The Swiss gave out L permits that contradicted the "rules of engagement" simple as that.[/QUOTE]

------

And in case the L is not changed to an unlimited B, the amount paid as umemployment insurance i.e. taxes should be returned but I guess it is not.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12.11.2009, 13:02
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Geneve
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
holycow has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Hi all,
I just joint this group as I need some insight from those who may experience the similar or have the knowlege and is willing to share. My first B permit is in production and have not yet mailed to me and I just got fired. I do not intent to get any benefit from the government. I have the following questions:

1) Can I still stay in Switzerland until the experation date?
2) I use my boss's address as the mailing address for the permit (I can't rent my own placce yet without the permit). Can he have the right to withhold that permit and not giving it to me?

Thanks in advance for any insights.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 12.11.2009, 13:05
swissbob
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
Hi all,
I just joint this group as I need some insight from those who may experience the similar or have the knowlege and is willing to share. My first B permit is in production and have not yet mailed to me and I just got fired. I do not intent to get any benefit from the government. I have the following questions:

1) Can I still stay in Switzerland until the experation date?
2) I use my boss's address as the mailing address for the permit (I can't rent my own placce yet without the permit). Can he have the right to withhold that permit and not giving it to me?

Thanks in advance for any insights.
Depends on the type of B permit and/or your nationality.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12.11.2009, 13:49
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Geneve
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
holycow has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

how do I know the type of B permit? this is the first permit and I am waiting for it.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 12.11.2009, 14:12
swissbob
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
how do I know the type of B permit? this is the first permit and I am waiting for it.
It would have said on the letter that allowed you to come to Switzerland and start work.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 12.11.2009, 14:28
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Geneve
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
holycow has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

The only have the letter from OCP referred to my file as Autorisation de séjour l'anneée, Permis B, avec activité lucrative (art 18,33 LEtr, art. 30 al 1 let h LEtr 46 OASA). I'm american. I've supposed to receive it a while ago but there's a OCP's departmental delay. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 12.11.2009, 14:44
swissbob
 
Posts: n/a
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Quote:
View Post
The only have the letter from OCP referred to my file as Autorisation de séjour l'anneée, Permis B, avec activité lucrative (art 18,33 LEtr, art. 30 al 1 let h LEtr 46 OASA). I'm american. I've supposed to receive it a while ago but there's a OCP's departmental delay. Thanks
So, quite a tricky one. Get legal advice for a definitive statement on your situation.

For what it's worth, I would expect that you can remain until the renewal date on the B permit. However, if you intend to search for a new job, then the new employer will have to go through the same hoops as the original one.

When you come to transfer to a new employer you may have issues - based on your term "fired". Usually the authorities are ok with transferring to a new company only when the employee is not the issue - i.e. the company went bankrupt, the project was cancelled, etc. A letter from the first company is usually required to that effect.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 12.11.2009, 16:35
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Geneve
Posts: 6
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
holycow has no particular reputation at present
Re: I just quit and my B Permit expires. Do I get kicked out?

Thanks Swissbob. I am afraid that my boss wont give me the permit once he receive my mail from OCP. I do not intent to use it for the seeking a new employment. My problem is that I need something as a proof that I've been living in Swiss legally as the first entry date to EU is Dec 2008 on my US passport. So, if I go home (US), I'm afraid that they will hugely fine me as I have overstayed (My passport do not have anything reflecting a duration allow according to the permit like visa). Is there a solution to having in a permit in my possession?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
B permit expires soon (non-EU) patxos Permits/visas/government 8 20.07.2007 12:59
After an L permit expires JohnDubya Permits/visas/government 0 30.03.2007 17:14
L Permit Confusion [permit for director of Swiss-based company] Interactive Permits/visas/government 16 04.10.2006 11:52


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0