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Old 20.12.2011, 10:45
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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My dream dog is a greyhound and when I hang up my career boots for good, I'm gonna get me one. They are common rescue dogs, too, and our family has always been a sucker for rescue dogs...
And when that time comes, you might want to take a look at this rescue (in Glarus) dedicated to helping the greyhounds, galgos, podencos and other sight hound breeds so often misused and discarded by the racing/hunting industries:

http://www.newgraceland.org/

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Old 20.12.2011, 10:46
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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Even apparently docile breeds can show undesirable traits if not looked after:
I was bitten by a poodle my dad rescued when I was 8. A bleedin poodle, believe it or not!! There goes my street cred.

It did teach me about food aggression in dogs though!
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Old 20.12.2011, 10:59
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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Even apparently docile breeds can show undesirable traits if not looked after.<snip>
Indeed. Although I don't mind admitting being nervous around big dogs with a reputation, the stats don't do them justice...

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However, there exists the false impression that pit bulls and Rottweilers are responsible for the dog bite epidemic. Although they do most of the killing, it is unlikely that they do most of the biting. The dog bite epidemic appears to involve all dogs and all dog owners. While pit bulls and Rottweilers inflict a disproportionate number of serious and even fatal injuries, the dog bite epidemic involves many different breeds, and results from many different causes. A clear distinction therefore needs to be made between canine homicides (i.e., incidents in which dogs kill people) and the dog bite epidemic.
Not quite sure if the bit I've highlighted is a good thing or bad...

http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-stati...fuse-them.html

But then look at this:

Quote:
Below are the most common dog bites for both Purebred and Crossbred. A Purebred is a dog within a bloodline and a Crossbred is a mixed breed of dog. Listed in order by most common dog bites causing fatalities.
Purebred dog bites include:
  • Pit Bulls
  • Rottweiler
  • German Shepherd
  • Husky Dog
  • Malamute
Crossbred dog bites include:
  • Wolf Dog
  • German Shepherd
  • Pit Bulls
  • Husky Dogs
  • Rottweiler
But if you then look at this though...

Quote:
Common Dog Bites causing injury or fatality:
  • Labrador Retriever
  • Bulldogs
  • Akita
  • Bullmastiff
  • Mastiff

For the sake of space I simply listed the top five: full list here...http://www.lawleaf.com/lawsuit-fundi...dog-bites.html

But basically although the "hard" dogs come out top, the most common for injury/death is the good old lab!
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Old 20.12.2011, 11:08
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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I was bitten by a poodle my dad rescued when I was 8. A bleedin poodle, believe it or not!! There goes my street cred.

It did teach me about food aggression in dogs though!
I remember when I was 6, Lassie bit me. I did approach the dog and was on his patch.

I never watched his TV show again.

FWIW, an aggressive dog is exactly that whatever the size. You think a badly trained, badly behaved pocket dog can't inflict significant hurt on a person or child?

There's two things I think of here. 50kg for a Rottie is very big. You're thinking maybe 35-40kg unless it's a large male.

Blanketing a breed with hatred is just the same as racism. It all comes back to how the dawg is handled by the owner. My 35kg dog responds to clicks and knows to not approach other dogs or people unless I say so. Sadly, not all owners have this level of control on their dog but believe they do.....

So my question is this to donalwho: how did the owner react and did he or she apologise? And how has your child reacted? These are the most important questions rather than "should the hound be muzzled?"
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Old 20.12.2011, 11:08
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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I only know that if a Rottweiler had come running up to me ready to jump, I wouldn't be here right now. I'd be dead from a heart attack.
(Just pulling this out as a representative comment, OG. )

I do indeed sympathize with anyone who has a fear of our canine friends (hey, I'm ichthyophobic; if a salmon swam towards me I'd have a heart attack), and will always promote responsible dog ownership so that we can all enjoy the great outdoors together.

If one has a fear of dogs, the BVet has a good little brochure showing what to do, how to behave around a dog. It is certainly worth reading, for one's own peace of mind - and this is something every parent should teach his/her child:

http://www.bvet.admin.ch/tsp/02222/0...x.html?lang=de

Scroll down, click on 'Ich habe Angst vor Hunde'.
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Old 20.12.2011, 11:30
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

Dusting off my old statistician's hat...

The problem with dog bite stats is that breed is only one of many possible variables on which one could analyse the data. Extrapolating based on analysis using a variable of questionable causality is wrong - and making policy based on flawed understanding of data is unforgiveable.

Breed is not necessarily a driving factor. You could get a similiar report analysing by length of coat. Or curl of tail. Or color of eyes. And these would be similarly meaningless.

Analysis by breed is often done... because. It's a convenient handle, not much more.

It would be far better to use the 'nuture' and situational variables to understand why a bite happened - because nuture plays a far greater part in how a dog's character and behavior is formed, and the exact situation of the incident is often the real driver.

But this data is more difficult to gather, puts the onus on the owner, and requires thought and quite a lot of work to find a solution. Far easier, and more politically expedient to select a random physical variable and call it causal.

This however does the public a great disservice, as it creates a false sense of security. Banning specific breeds will not make you any safer from idiot owners. Educating owners will reduce the number of idiots around, and indeed make for a safer society.
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Old 20.12.2011, 11:45
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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Dusting off my old statistician's hat...
What your statistician's hat failed to comment on - unless I missed it - is that labradors are also much more common than "biting" breeds...

Last edited by Carlos R; 20.12.2011 at 11:48. Reason: qualified "other breeds"
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Old 20.12.2011, 12:00
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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What your statistician's hat failed to comment on - unless I missed it - is that labradors are also much more common than other breeds...
Exactly - one needs to look at the data far more deeply than by breed alone.

The BVet bite report does break down bite incident by % of the (known, which is only an estimate) breed population, so from that standpoint the Swiss report is more informative than similar reports from other countries. The Swiss report discusses some of the 'fuzzy' factors where known, but that info - which is more important to a full understanding of why a bite happened, is not routinely gathered. To be fair, this type of data is very difficult to gather.

But the analysis by breed, which is what the media, the public, and our politicians pick up on, still makes the basic mistake of using a factor that is not a proven driver as the basis for analysis.

But breed makes for a good headline.
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Old 20.12.2011, 12:28
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

the reporting is inconsistent too as many bites come from the family pet and the last thing people think of is to report a bite from their family pet.

so statistics are not that reliable.
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Old 20.12.2011, 13:08
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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you are making a major mistake here: the breed may not be a predictor of behavior, but it is a pretty good predictor of the possible damage and harm, have you considered this?

and speaking of emotion, please tell us why would one want so desperately to cohabit a small apartment or house with a 50kg canine that was bred for tacking wolves, hearding sheep and cattle and attacking trespassers in farmland, despite all the trouble with neighbors, kids, cars, the filth? i really, sincerely want to understand you
I have been bitten by two dogs. One put me in the hospital at the age of 9 with the bones in my hand crushed by the dog's bite. That dog was an English Springer Spaniel. The other dog that bit me was a German Shorthaired Pointer.

And despite this trauma, I am not afraid of any dog. I have been licked to laughter by pit bulls, slobbered on by Rottweilers, and hugged by Dobermans.

There are no "bad" dogs.
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Old 20.12.2011, 13:53
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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What your statistician's hat failed to comment on - unless I missed it - is that labradors are also much more common than "biting" breeds...
That and sadly enough it is often a certain type of person that owns big, impressive dogs like Rottweilers or Doberman or Staffordshire terriers, people with a low self esteem who need the big dog to impress others and they are probably even proud when the dog shows aggressive behavior. These people don't know how to responsibly handle a dog like this. When I think back at the tragic incidents when kids were killed by dogs, these dogs almost exclusively were owned by lower class people, to put it nicely.

Another problem is that popular breeds get multiplied under terrible conditions just to make money and nobody cares about socialization or genetic defects.

Luckily, we have also great people here who own their big dogs responsibly, so I'm not talking about anyone on EF here, because I know you Rottie and Lab owners care.
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Old 20.12.2011, 14:35
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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These people don't know how to responsibly handle a dog like this.
This is what we should focus on, not breed.

We need to get at the root cause - the behavior of irresponsible owners, lack of education as to what society expects of owners - if we are to change behavior, don't we? Blaming the 'accessory' is just window dressing - and hurts many innocent owners and their pets.

A example of a similar issue:

Before I bought my car, I spoke with my insurance agent to find out how much of a premium increase I'd get hit with for driving a red vehicle.

The (Swiss) agent's response --> WTF? Why should the color of your car matter?

I had asked the question because in my home state it's quite common for insurance companies to charge higher premiums for red car owners, as their stats show a higher incidence of accidents involving red cars (One hypothesis is that people likely to engage in risky behavior are also attracted to red.) So in their wisdom some insurance companies have chosen isolate one variable, car color, to use as a predictor of behavior. They have been doing this so long that public (at least back home) has come to accept the idea that red car = risky driver.

Sure, it's easily measured data. But is it really meaningful? A more accurate predictor of future risky behavior would be, say, an individual's actual driving record. (D'oh!) In order to do any useful analysis, one must understand how that one variable fits into the larger dataset. The question that too often goes unasked is: correlation or causation?

My Swiss insurance company, thankfully, sees a link between car color and accidents as irrelevant. (But I'll still hold their feet to the fire over their linking of nationality and/or permit status to higher premiums.)

Using breed as the variable to analyze bite stats is similar to using car color to assess driver safety.

---

So why does this staid, frumpy, speed-limit-observing, grey haired lady drive a red car? Because that was the only color that came for free. A 'dezent' Swiss grey cost quite a bit extra, and I'm too cheap to fork out for something so trivial as car color. So much for random characteristics as predictors of behavior.

----

My point being that one must be very careful with statistical trends and most certainly with extrapolation. Stats can tell you what has happened in the past, but this picture is far from complete. We need to understand which of the many variables, or variable combinations, actually influence behavior if we are to use this data in determining what to do to take steps to change outcomes. Policy based on anything else is ineffective and potentially negligent.
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Old 20.12.2011, 15:02
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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<using statistics to predict outcomes>
All of this still begs the question for me, why we(a)ren't kennel clubs, national, breed and others, more actively enganged to lobby in the cantons and municipalities to fight against breed bans and un-predicated dog-bullying legislation?

And I don't limit this question to just Switzerland. A lot of other countries have this problem as well. So much effort is made to protect animal welfare (e.g. anti-cropping/docking, tierschutz laws, SKN rules) which most people agree are legitimate and acceptable -- though personally I do not fully agree that docking isn't a necessary practice. So how do silly breed bans and automatic blanket muzzling laws make it onto the books without a fight from the opposition?
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Old 20.12.2011, 23:51
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

There is too much dog bullying. Only the other day, I saw 2 alsatians pulling the hair of a labrador and demanding its dinner money.

Cheers,
Nick

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All of this still begs the question for me, why we(a)ren't kennel clubs, national, breed and others, more actively enganged to lobby in the cantons and municipalities to fight against breed bans and un-predicated dog-bullying legislation
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Old 21.12.2011, 00:11
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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I have been bitten by two dogs. One put me in the hospital at the age of 9 with the bones in my hand crushed by the dog's bite. That dog was an English Springer Spaniel. The other dog that bit me was a German Shorthaired Pointer.

And despite this trauma, I am not afraid of any dog. I have been licked to laughter by pit bulls, slobbered on by Rottweilers, and hugged by Dobermans.

There are no "bad" dogs.
what makes you think that a human can fully control an animal? are we really capable of doing that and are animals complete robots?
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Old 21.12.2011, 11:09
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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what makes you think that a human can fully control an animal? are we really capable of doing that and are animals complete robots?
Fully control? No, and this post isn't any less nonsense than the other one.


If there is a situation that arises which is somehow a "conflict" between a human and a dog (whether it is an overly friendly dog like in the OP, a violent one, or somewhere in between) - the one who is the LEAST "predictable" (let alone controllable) is the human, not the dog.

While you're right, it's impossible to "fully" control an animal to the degree that you'd control a robot (), a well matched, well acquainted, well trained pair that is owner+dog can be counted on to be controlled to a predictable degree. Of course, if the dog in the OP was THAT well trained, the running jump (and subsequent licky overly-friendly "attack" of slobber) wouldn't have happened but that doesn't mean that the owner was unable to predict what the dog would do.

My dog isn't very well trained really at all, not to the point of voice control certainly, BUT I know that she's not going to make a flying leap at someone and bite their face off without any warning at all. She IS going to jump up on you and try to give you "kisses", she is going to throw things at you to try to get you to play with her, she is going to sit between myself and whomever she may see as a competitor for my attention... she IS going to growl and give warnings (in escalating loudness) to someone who is irritating her BEFORE she gives a warning nip.

Robot-like control? No.
Predictable behavior? Yes.

What I can't predict is what the idiot who is irritating enough to make her try to warn them off will do about being growled at. I know even less what they'll do if they don't heed her (and by now, warnings from me as well) and get nipped for their idiocy. My dog is a pretty patient dog, she loves to play and pretty accustomed to meeting strangers, it takes a lot for her to start getting irritated, starting with her feeling like she can't get away from the situation (she used to simply get up and walk away from my 2yo nephew if he was being a pest, the growls happened if he managed to corner her) on her own - she's much less confrontational than I can be.
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Old 21.12.2011, 12:03
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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Fully control? No, and this post isn't any less nonsense than the other one.


If there is a situation that arises which is somehow a "conflict" between a human and a dog (whether it is an overly friendly dog like in the OP, a violent one, or somewhere in between) - the one who is the LEAST "predictable" (let alone controllable) is the human, not the dog.

While you're right, it's impossible to "fully" control an animal to the degree that you'd control a robot (), a well matched, well acquainted, well trained pair that is owner+dog can be counted on to be controlled to a predictable degree. Of course, if the dog in the OP was THAT well trained, the running jump (and subsequent licky overly-friendly "attack" of slobber) wouldn't have happened but that doesn't mean that the owner was unable to predict what the dog would do.

My dog isn't very well trained really at all, not to the point of voice control certainly, BUT I know that she's not going to make a flying leap at someone and bite their face off without any warning at all. She IS going to jump up on you and try to give you "kisses", she is going to throw things at you to try to get you to play with her, she is going to sit between myself and whomever she may see as a competitor for my attention... she IS going to growl and give warnings (in escalating loudness) to someone who is irritating her BEFORE she gives a warning nip.

Robot-like control? No.
Predictable behavior? Yes.

What I can't predict is what the idiot who is irritating enough to make her try to warn them off will do about being growled at will do. I know even less what they'll do if they don't heed her (and by now, warnings from me as well) and get nipped for their idiocy. My dog is a pretty patient dog, she loves to play and pretty accustomed to meeting strangers, it takes a lot for her to start getting irritated, starting with her feeling like she can't get away from the situation (she used to simply get up and walk away from my 2yo nephew if he was being a pest, the growls happened if he managed to corner her) on her own - she's much less confrontational than I can be.
I think both humans and animals can be unpredictable. The difference is that when it comes to the situations in this thread, it's not all that likely the owner is going to bite you (or pull a gun or knife) or physically harm you in some way. The animal, however, is. So whether more or less predictable, the fact remains that both humans and animals aren't fully predictable and I can handle a yelling owner more than I can a pouncing and/or biting dog.

Basically, it's best to keep your dog on a lead. I don't like being knocked off my feet by a friendly dog (and dangerous too whilst I'm pregnant) nor do I like being bitten, of course. We all have a right to go for walks around Switzerland and not be accosted (friendly or otherwise) by a dog. And if someone does want to be friendly with dogs as they pass, there are obviously appropriate ways to go about it.
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Old 21.12.2011, 12:17
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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(Just pulling this out as a representative comment, OG. )

I do indeed sympathize with anyone who has a fear of our canine friends (hey, I'm ichthyophobic; if a salmon swam towards me I'd have a heart attack), and will always promote responsible dog ownership so that we can all enjoy the great outdoors together.

If one has a fear of dogs, the BVet has a good little brochure showing what to do, how to behave around a dog. It is certainly worth reading, for one's own peace of mind - and this is something every parent should teach his/her child:

http://www.bvet.admin.ch/tsp/02222/0...x.html?lang=de

Scroll down, click on 'Ich habe Angst vor Hunde'.
I'll take a reem, please. I'm going to start handing them out.

"Wer Angst hat, sondert Stoffe in die Luft ab, die der Hund
wahrnehmen kann. Gleichzeitig haben ängstliche Leute die Tendenz, sich zu versteifen und den Hund mit den Augen zu fixieren. All dies geschieht unbewusst! Für einen Hund ist eine steife Haltung ein Zeichen von Dominanz. Das Fixieren mit den Augen ist eine Drohung. Hunde nehmen diese Botschaften wahr, und einige reagieren darauf aggressiv. Wenden Sie deshalb Ihren Blick vom Hund ab, wenn Sie Angst haben."


"He who is afraid secretes substances into the air that the dog can perceive. At the same time anxious people have a tendency to stiffen up and fix their eyes on the dog. All of this happens unconsciously! For a dog it is a rigid posture signaling Dominance. The fixation with the eyes is a threat. Dogs perceive these messages, and some respond it aggressively. Please make eye contact away from the dog if you are afraid."

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Old 21.12.2011, 12:36
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

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Of course, if the dog in the OP was THAT well trained, the running jump (and subsequent licky overly-friendly "attack" of slobber) wouldn't have happened but that doesn't mean that the owner was unable to predict what the dog would do.
OP hasn't offered to elaborate on the details or answer any questions, but the more I'm thinking about that lovable Rottotiller, the more I'm thinking it sounds like something a very young dog would do.

For those who don't know dogs, like F16, they grow to adult size very quickly, but mental maturity can take much longer, and in some breeds it can take years.

Puppies (and I use this term to include any dog between the age of 0 and 24 months) can be very exuberant, just like a human child. And they don't always listen, or do as is expected of them. And they like to play. Just like human children.

I've seen enough people in Switzerland overreact to dogs so I can well imagine what really went down that morning. I'm on the dog's side.

I think if people in our Swiss communities have such exacting expectations of dog behavior, combined with Swiss laws demanding off-leash walks, then Swiss governments need to start providing more constructive spaces for dogs to be safely and properly trained and socialized. Afterall, I know my exorbitant dog licensing fees should be paying for more than Bravo bags.
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Old 21.12.2011, 14:02
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Re: Muzzle for Rottweiller

Aside from self defense, there's absolutely no excuse for allowing your dog to make contact with anyone else against their will, and I say that as a lifelong dog owner. It doesn't matter if the dog was friendly, what breed the dog is, if the person made eye contact or was running or yelling. When will many dog owners comprehend that there are people who don't want your dog sniffing/jumping/licking them? Keep your dog on a leash if you don't have full control of them.
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