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  #81  
Old 31.07.2007, 14:51
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

(why do i keep losing my sign-in status so that everytime I post a reply, I have to log in a second time and lose my original message!!!

Anyway, I would like to please ask anyone out there who has a larger breed (you know, the scarry, dangerous kinds over 20 kilos and 44cm with teeth, no fangs) if they would mind sharing any experiences directly related to this new BSL stuff going on. I know different cantons have different laws, and in fact the rest of the world is not far behind in drafting this BSL nonsense. All countries seem to be going along with this discrimination, as you can see on the Dane & Grays link above. Its unbelievable what this world is getting itself into now.

I am not sure now if my resist to relocate to Switzerland is no longer necessary given that Ireland is now the new number one in "the worst yet" category when it comes to BSL...So, I am scratching my head about all of this and am not sure if I will be REALLY subjecting my dog to risk of being put down in Switzerland if he didnt pass that temperament test. I cannot read German, so I am not able to understand the criteria of this test, and therefore cannot make a proper evaluation for my dog. DOes anyone know if your dog fails the test, do you have to surrender him right then and there to the authorities, or do they give you a chance to do it again, or what is this procedure.

Thank you in advance to anyone who may be able to shed some more light on this.

Kindest regards
CC
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  #82  
Old 31.07.2007, 18:19
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

I am not sure now if my resist to relocate to Switzerland is no longer necessary given that Ireland is now the new number one in "the worst yet" category when it comes to BSL...
Thank you in advance to anyone who may be able to shed some more light on this.

Kindest regards
CC[/quote]


Hello,

Could you please elaborate on what is happening in Ireland ???

thank you
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  #83  
Old 31.07.2007, 18:37
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

I know this is a little off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread, since all the dog people seem to be here. I have a question concerning breeds. For a country that has so many cows and sheep, why do I hardly ever see herding dogs here? Or do people really only use them for herding so you never see them in town?
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  #84  
Old 31.07.2007, 18:41
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

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I know this is a little off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread, since all the dog people seem to be here. I have a question concerning breeds. For a country that has so many cows and sheep, why do I hardly ever see herding dogs here? Or do people really only use them for herding so you never see them in town?
Wikipedia reference-linkEntlebucher_Mountain_Dog

There are loads of these and other types of Wikipedia reference-linkSwiss_Mountain_Dog
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  #85  
Old 31.07.2007, 19:58
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Hi Danes&Greys

Yes, I can tell you that this Dublin legislation is quite different than the proposals in Switzerland in that the legislation appeared out of nowhere, with no vote, no consultation with the population, no conslutation with behaviourists, etc. It just became law one day this past June, without warning. How utterly draconian!

The gist of it is that the people who live in "Council" properties (that are subsidized by the council) are no longer allowed to keep certain breeds in these residences, nor are these breeds allowed on "council public lands" which includes public parks in Dublin. The very sad sad thing here besides the obvious, is that the general population who tend to live in council flats are largely the pensioners. These poor pensioners have been targeted by the drunken thugs who have nothing else to do but break in to the penioners flats, tie them up, beat them, rob them, and vandalise thier homes. This occurs on a regular basis. Many pensioners turned to keeping large dogs as a source of protection as nothing was done by the government to stop crimes against pensioners. Very sadly, what is happening now is these loved and valued members of families who have protected these pensioners (with no complaints of attacks mind you, but really just a deterrent) are being turned over to the authorities by pensioners who do not want to be seen as not cooperating with the law. Many are alone now, and these dogs have been their constant companion. Many dogs have already been surrendured, and many have been put down. The pensioner doesnt have the resources to turn to anyone for help, so many did not know that there were protests against this, and they should have waited while the groups organised, etc.

Thats the gist, and if you would like to sign a petition, or just read more, you can check out these links:

www.anvilireland.ie
www.pauladoohan.ie
www.petitiononline.com scroll down to Citizens against Dog Ban
www.breakingnews.ie/ireland
www.irishdogs.ie

Some might say "this has nothing to do with our fight over here" but really, it does. If enough people go against this ban, it will have a knock-on effect everywhere else. I dont know the measure of that effect, but there will surely be one. Just as the BSL started somehwhere else, it too took off like a virus and spread like wildfire throughout the rest of the world. NOw many countries are considering adopting the same or similar proposals. So, if you can sign a petition, or read about this and tell everyone, it will only help all dogs everywhere.

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  #86  
Old 31.07.2007, 20:07
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

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Hi Danes&Greys

Yes, I can tell you that this Dublin legislation is quite different than the proposals in Switzerland in that the legislation appeared out of nowhere, with no vote, no consultation with the population, no conslutation with behaviourists, etc. It just became law one day this past June, without warning. How utterly draconian!


Some might say "this has nothing to do with our fight over here" but really, it does. If enough people go against this ban, it will have a knock-on effect everywhere else. I dont know the measure of that effect, but there will surely be one. Just as the BSL started somehwhere else, it too took off like a virus and spread like wildfire throughout the rest of the world. NOw many countries are considering adopting the same or similar proposals. So, if you can sign a petition, or read about this and tell everyone, it will only help all dogs everywhere.

Thanks
CC
OK thank you for this.

I'll make it widely available in the UK

I must say that this is the first that I've heard about it.

Sad state of affairs
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  #87  
Old 01.08.2007, 10:55
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

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I know this is a little off topic but I didn't want to start a new thread, since all the dog people seem to be here. I have a question concerning breeds. For a country that has so many cows and sheep, why do I hardly ever see herding dogs here? Or do people really only use them for herding so you never see them in town?
I have 2 herding dogs arriving in Switzerland next month, and but I suspect the reason you don´t see them very often in town is that by their very nature they are not really suitible for keeping in apartments, so people who have them tend to live in smaller villages or in the country side where houses with gardens are more reasonably priced.

My 2 dogs would much rather be running around in the open fields or forests than on a lead in the city, so we very rarely take them into town

All of which reminds me, I must post a new thread to see if anyone has any contacts with sheep owners, so my dogs can contnue to do herding when they arrive
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  #88  
Old 01.08.2007, 13:00
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

I was mainly curious because I used to have a blue heeler (Oh, how I miss him, he was so f-kin' smart and crazy) and I've never seen one here, or actually any of the herding dogs from australia.

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I have 2 herding dogs arriving in Switzerland next month, and but I suspect the reason you don´t see them very often in town is that by their very nature they are not really suitible for keeping in apartments, so people who have them tend to live in smaller villages or in the country side where houses with gardens are more reasonably priced.

My 2 dogs would much rather be running around in the open fields or forests than on a lead in the city, so we very rarely take them into town

All of which reminds me, I must post a new thread to see if anyone has any contacts with sheep owners, so my dogs can contnue to do herding when they arrive
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  #89  
Old 17.08.2007, 20:26
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

News from the Hunde-Online website, 16 August 2007 (www.hunde-online.ch) - info on the dog control law in Thurgau:

"Kanton Thurgau: Geld oder Leben" 'Money or {your dog's}life'

www.hunde-online.ch/pdf_2006/TG.pdf

Quellen: St. Galler-Tagblatt, NZZ-online, Thurgauer
Zeitung
Text und Interview: Erika Städeli Scherrer

The good news is that Thurgau has not opted for BSL or muzzle requirement as had been proposed - but the bad news is that all dogs categorized as 'dangerous' will require a permit. (Once more, like a broken record - what is the definition of 'dangerous?) The law requires that an owner of such dogs will have to have a clean reputation and no criminal record in order to gain a permit. And, all dogs over 15kg must attend a practical training course during the first year of ownership.

Worryingly, there is a provision that if an owner does not pay the dog tax or liability insurance, the dog can be seized and/or killed. Hunde-Online has published an interview with attorney Daniel Jung, who points out that this provision effectively treats a dog as an object, not a living thing, contrary to the current animal welfare law, Tiere sind keine Sachen (Animals are not things) and that it is also contrary to the Bundesgesetz über Schuldbetreibung und Konnkurs (SchKG), which says that animals cannot be seized as assets.

Mr Jung points out that few Gemeinden, after seizing a dog, will want to or have the resources to pay for it's upkeep in a Tierheim - this could be interpreted as: 'pay up, or we kill the dog'.

Further from an NZZ article:

http://www.nzz.ch/magazin/dossiers/d..._1.541752.html

The cost of a permit in Thuragu to keep a dog categorized as 'dangerous' is expected to be CHF 2000.

Further, any dog that endangers another can be seized or killed. (note: The German is: Hunde, die andere gefährden, können eingezogen und getötet werden.' Does this mean people only - or any critter?)

----

A reminder that the commentary period on the federal dog control law runs through 15 September, and that Hunde-Online is gathering signatures to their petition protesting this law through 31 August. The petition, if you have not yet signed, can be found at:

www.hunde-online.ch

Click on 'politik'.

Please sign if you have not already done so.
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  #90  
Old 09.09.2007, 16:43
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Dear CC,

As always, thank you for your most helpful and informative updates. I have come to rely on your (and others) postings for personal insight as to what I am going to do as regards moving to switzerland.

For me, in particular, I have no idea what is going on due to my total lack of German language. I have clicked on your links, and I have saved the part on the List 1 and List 2 breeds. I have a question, I dont know if you can answer, but I will try anyway...On the list (under the politik link) it mentions "Maliois" in List 2. Then if you read further, it seems to state something to the effect that when they write "Malinois", they also mean to include all Belgium shepherds. Am I picking this up correctly? I have no German language experience, but I am getting the sense that this is what they mean. Any clarification would be welcome.

Also, given what you cited above, does this suggest that I should avoid looking at property in Thurgau? I am interpreting everything to suggest that my Belgian Shep will cost me 2000 chf per year just becasue someone thinks he is dangerous!! And I thought the Simpsons were morons!

(...grumbling over the issue....)

This entire debacle is such a downright shame, there will never be any positive outcome in passing these hasty laws. It will surely drive those who breed dogs for fighting even further underground, while the rest of us law-abiding citizens are going to be subjected to total anti-dog attitudes. It is no mystery that media drives attitude, but when the media also drives legislation, that spells disaster. These bureaucrats sitting in legislature are not capable of writing such legislation, they obviously have no experience with animals, only with what satisfies the media status-quo. Now the public will perceive any dog over 20 kilos to be dangerous. IT will become a very divided socially contentious issue, with many negative outcomes, such as public arguments as those bitter citizens verbally assault anyone who doesnt have their dog in a muzzle, on a short lead, or whose paws touch any park property. As Dr. Kivorkian said about Rosa Parks, she stood up (or remained seated for that matter!) in defiance of a law. Just becasue it was "law" did not mean it was fair, logical or moral. As we all now agree, segregation is immoral and inhumane and most importantly, illegal.

I would hope and pray that this BSL would never become law. There is no sound, scientific evidence to support what they are claiming. There is no single scientific study, or shred of data to prove that certain breeds are more prone to being dangeorus than any other breed. There is no objecitvely definitive proof that a dog is born to attack by virtue of its breed. The BSL law, if it is ever to be considered a fair and just law, is required to support this type of evidence. But it could never, so the whole thing is entirely written from specualtion and media fear-mongering, and uneducated people who havent got a clue about behaviourism.

If this were Utopia, I would have hoped that the Swiss authorities would have lead this global witch hunt on large dogs through a modern and visionary approach, which is to require courses on behaviourism (NOT obedience) for ALL dog owners. Being world class entrepeneurs and leaders and examples of neutrality, I would have envisioned the behaviour courses being taught by those who know what they are doing as regards teaching behaviourism. Its really the only moral and humane solution to stopping people from raising unbalanced and unstable dogs. As a behaviourist, I have observed dogs turn ugly because I have observed the owner display signs of instability and aggression first.

Thanks for any feedback
Kind regards,
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  #91  
Old 09.09.2007, 17:48
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Hello,

Sorry I accanot reply to all your other questions but a Malinois is part of the "Belgian shepherds" group.

Doubt that sounds good news though.

Good luck
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  #92  
Old 09.09.2007, 17:50
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Hello,

Does anyone know the results of the "dog" related referendum in August?

Thank you
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  #93  
Old 09.09.2007, 22:45
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

We have a 5 month old Alaskan Malamute and we have noticed that a lot of people are very wary of him despite being always on a leash. Malamutes are very friendly towards strangers and make a non threatening 'woo-woo-woo' sound as a greeting. However his greeting seems to scare some people we meet when walking. I thought it was just because he looks a bit wolf like, but I guess there is generally a popular fear of larger dogs here.

As our dog was born in the UK and has a British issued pet passport, does he have any extra protection concerning these new dog laws in Switzerland? Do we have the right to repatriate him at any time?
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  #94  
Old 10.09.2007, 13:18
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

[quote=MoabMan;102336]We have a 5 month old Alaskan Malamute and we have noticed that a lot of people are very wary of him despite being always on a leash. Malamutes are very friendly towards strangers and make a non threatening 'woo-woo-woo' sound as a greeting. However his greeting seems to scare some people we meet when walking. I thought it was just because he looks a bit wolf like, but I guess there is generally a popular fear of larger dogs here.

Isn't this just so sad.
IMHO the press is seems to be creating a whole fear based atmosphere re. dogs. That of course all due to their sensatialism journalism.

Perhaps make the youngster sit, and greet the people

Sorry can't reply to your CH question
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  #95  
Old 10.09.2007, 19:03
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

I would also be very interested in any of these updates. Also, would it be possible for anyone to please tell me how or where I can find this so called behavioural test that my Grenendael Belgian Shepherd-cross would be subjected to should I decide to relocate to Switzerland? I would like to download it, study it and prepare my dog to pass this test so I will not have to live in fear of the unknown! Any feedback is appreciated.

Cheers
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  #96  
Old 10.09.2007, 19:11
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

As our dog was born in the UK and has a British issued pet passport, does he have any extra protection concerning these new dog laws in Switzerland? Do we have the right to repatriate him at any time?[/quote]


Dear Moabman,

I would imagine that should your dog not pass their definition of "non-dangerous dog" you may be given a second chance after taking some obedience lessons (I know, how stuipd)- but it would be at this time that I would seriously study think about whether you want to subject your dog to the test again, and possibly fail a second time. I guess it depends on the way they test your dog, and how many times you get to "resit" the test, if any! Before the final "resit" may be the time to "repatriate" your dog if you are not sure your dog will pass. I have also studied this alternative.

As for any extra rights for having done the correct paperwork from the UK, no you do not have extra or any different rights when it comes to this BSL legislation. You should expect to be treated equally as everyone else.

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Old 10.09.2007, 21:55
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

First - we've been discussing two different things here - the proposed federal legislation, and the various measures enacted or proposed by several cantons.

To briefly clarify, at present, legislation addressing dog control measures is the responsibility of the cantons. Some cantons, Valais being the most extreme, have already enacted BSL (and the courts have upheld the Valais measures as non-discriminatory and therefore valid). Other cantons have taken a less restrictive approach. Many of the reports I have posted are covering measures pertaining to individual cantons. Dog owners should understand the dog related regulations - enacted or pending - of the canton in which one lives or plans to live. Additionally, if you are visiting another canton, you must comply with the regulations of that canton while you are there.

The second aspect of this discussion is a proposal to make dog control legislation the responsibility of the federal government, not of the canton - this is a radical change. These proposals (during the life of this thread, there have been at least 3 different proposals at the federal level), if enacted, would apply to all dog owners resident in Switzerland, regardless of canton. The two proposals that are currently being discussed are the WBK proposal, which categorizes dogs into 'dangerous' 'potentially dangerous' and 'less dangerous', as well as a host of other measures, and the Bundesrat liability proposal, which automatically makes the dog owner liable for any damages, regardless of the situation in which damages occurred or of negligence by or fault of the other party.

Sooooo - where are we now? In limbo.

Both federal proposals are in the public discussion period through 15 Sept. After that time I assume there will be further parliamentary debate. I don't know when the measures will come to a vote. The situation is also complicated by the possibility of a public referendum - some of the anti-dog folk (Blick, etc.) have stated that if the federal government does not take sufficient action they will launch a people's initiative. doG only knows what such an initiative would include.

Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of the WBK proposal is that it does not give exact definitions of how a dog will be classified, only vague mentions of using size, weight, and breed characteristics. The rest is left to the Bundesrat to decide at some later date. Nor does it specify exactly what will happen to dogs in each class. In essence, this legislation is a blank check - it simply gives the federal government the power to make any and all restrictions it sees fit as the need occurs.

The only thing that is spelled out is that pit bulls and 'pit bull types' (what ever that means ) will be banned under this proposal. But we do not know if other breeds and their crosses will also be banned, or not. There is a list of 12-17 breeds that have been banned/restricted in some cantons, and these are the breeds often mentioned in the press, but the WBK proposal is maddenly vague.

So, how will any individual dog be effected? doG only knows.

CC and Danes and Greys, the List 1 and List 2 you are referring to have to do with legislation pending in canton Zürich, it's not (necessarily) part of the WBK federal proposal.

Presently, I *think* only Valais has implemented a character test of dogs of certain breeds/crosses. I could not find any specifics online of the test used; I would suggest contacting the cantonal veterinary office. Cantons Geneva and Fribourg require owners of listed breeds (their lists differ) to obtain a permit in order to keep the dog; ZH uses a voluntary test to determine if a dog from one the four breeds currently restricted may be freed from the muzzling/lead requirements. Throughout the course of this thread we have been discussing whether or not the various proposals, cantonal and federal, would make use of these tests (Wesenstest in German) more widespread, and if so, what sort of test, and who would be required to undergo it. At present we are speculating, based on media reports. Concern over Wesenstesting stems from reports on the test used in NRW Germany, which has become the test that many politicians, and sadly, some trainers, seem to favor - a test, that in my humble opinion, is both useless and abusive.

But, I cannot stress enough - we do not know if Wesenstesting will be included in the federal proposals.

The Tier Im Recht Foundation has recently published a very detailed response to the WBK and Bundesrat proposals, outlining where it sees legal, practical and animal right concerns. It's quite a long document - I'll post a summary shortly (or maybe not quite shortly... the mutts are keeping me rather busy at the moment. )

I know how very frustrating all this uncertainty is, especially if you are planning a move here. (The dogs' welfare is always the first consideration on our list when deciding whether we move to a new country, or not...) For my part, I'm sitting tight until something concrete is enacted - then I will make a decision whether to stay or go.

The authors of the WBK proposal have been very, very clever. By keeping the legislation so vague, most people will approve, unaware that the proposal does far more than ban pit bulls. But the devil is in the details - and under this proposal we won't know exactly what those details are until it is too late.

Last edited by meloncollie; 14.09.2007 at 14:31. Reason: clarity and emphasis
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  #98  
Old 11.09.2007, 13:22
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Great post and thank you!

Well, at least will never have to think of going back to live in CH ; new possible anti-dog laws have certainly put a damper on that one
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Old 11.09.2007, 13:57
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

Dear Meloncollie,
Many thanks for your hard work and time/efforts into the reply. I will download all of the links, print them, and bring them to my German friend who is also very concerned about animal welfare in this region. She can translate them to me, and help me understand what to do. I feel so helpless from Spain, but I have been keeping a very close eye on the matter, through this forum mostly, so your posts have been invaluable.
I am sure many others wisht to thank you as well. By the way, how do I formally thank you on this forum??

There is one particular issue that stands above the rest, and I concur with you on the matter: the fact that the legislation has been left without details, leaves this as an "open check". In my opinion, the details of the open check will be influenced by "donations" from whomever is the higest bidder.

I look forward to your summary on the latest matters that concern this (you decide if it should be brief, depending on the "kids" keeping you too busy or not!!) If there is anything at all I can do, please do not hesitate to ask me!

I know that you and many others define the quality of your life partially by the degree to which you can enjoy your dogs, and provide a safe home for them. I am thinking about you and the rest whom have already made CH their home, and find themselves worried about the lack of clarity in these proposals, and how the outcome may affect your lives in the long term. I will have to take a wait and see approach before deciding if Switzerland is the right place for a dog lover/animal welfare defender.

Kind regards,
CC
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Old 12.09.2007, 18:29
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Re: Federal Dog Control Legislation

I am not entirely sure, but I may have found a video of the Wesenstest. It seems to fit my general understanding of the test. I am not certain of my understanding of this test other than it is used to measure proneness to aggression/danger. I have not seen the "threatening man with a stick" to provoke the dog. Could this be in fact the right example of the Wesenstest? Is this feature of a threatening man with a stick only a rumour??

http://www.dailymotion.com/tag/wesenstest

There are several thumbnail videos on this page. The ones I am referring to are the first two, of the Malinois. It then goes on to Shutz stuff, but that is not of concern here.

Does anyone know if this is what the WBK proposal will include?

Many thanks for any replies
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breed specific legislation, cantonal dog law, federal dog law




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