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  #21  
Old 20.09.2016, 14:42
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Done and dusted.

Cool. Just let me or any of the other mods know if you need to update that thread again, and we'll unlock it again for you.
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  #22  
Old 20.09.2016, 14:56
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Re: SKN - abolished

I am absolutely miffed at our politicians because of that.

At least I'd have preferred the way how Bundesrat Berset suggested, for it to be still mandatory for first time owners.


ut then if it is true than a fifth of all new owners never bothered the do the course, it remains the same as it always was. All best intentions are for nowt, the problem with dogs.....is ALWAYS at the other end of the leash!
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  #23  
Old 20.09.2016, 15:27
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Re: SKN - abolished

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http://mobile2.bazonline.ch/articles...5c370be0000001

Looks like the end of the SKN

In brief: 20 percent of dog owners did not take any classes. Research has shown that behavior of dog did not differ between those who took classes and those who did not take them. Government in Berne wanted to keep courses mandatory but parlament decided against them. So they will get rid of them completely.
"20 percent of dog owners did not take any classes" I wonder where they got that number from? I had the impression there was no central registry of people who took such classes plus the added complication that some Cantons (like Zürich) had extra mandatory courses for some classes of dogs??

I am curious because my personal impressions were that many more than 20% failed to take the classes plus there was a serious shortfall in the total number of courses available?

Last edited by marton; 20.09.2016 at 18:09. Reason: grammar improvement
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Old 20.09.2016, 16:24
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Mods - perhaps attaching this post to the SKN sticky would be useful?
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It would make more sense to delete the SKN thread, along with the 'Requirements for dog care providers' one - as I would guess those requirements might fall by the wayside as well, at least for casual sitters.
No sense in outdated information left to clutter the forum and confuse newbies. People rarely look at updates or post dates, I wouldn't want someone making decisions based on information that is no longer relevant.
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While it may now be outdated, as has been said there's a possibility of individual Cantons deciding that training is required, so some, or a lot, of the information may again be relevant.

So I wouldn't be too hasty in deleting it at the moment.
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And a brief edit at the beginning of the SKN should probably be added as well - as we know most people only read an initial post, do not bother to read to the end of a thread.

I've already added an update to the first post on the 'Dog Care Requirements' thread, simply saying 'stay tuned for more info'.

I can't do the same on the SKN thread as it is closed, so perhaps a mod could do that?
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I've re-opened the thread so you can do what you need to do - this is your puppy after all

Just let me know when you've done it, and I'll close if off again
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Done and dusted.
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Cool. Just let me or any of the other mods know if you need to update that thread again, and we'll unlock it again for you.
The now edited SKN sticky - for those interested - is here: Dogs: Federal SKN and Cantonal Obligatory Course and Trainer Recommendation Thread

Thanks Slaphead and Meloncollie for enabling/doing the edit.
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  #25  
Old 20.09.2016, 18:19
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Re: SKN - abolished

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And a brief edit at the beginning of the SKN should probably be added as well - as we know most people only read an initial post, do not bother to read to the end of a thread.

I've already added an update to the first post on the 'Dog Care Requirements' thread, simply saying 'stay tuned for more info'.

I can't do the same on the SKN thread as it is closed, so perhaps a mod could do that?
Just learnt from the BLV that the law will stay in effect at least till December 31, 2016.
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  #26  
Old 20.09.2016, 18:25
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Just learnt from the BLV that the law will stay in effect at least till December 31, 2016.
In general any new or abolished law has a 100 day cool off period where the people can collect 50'000 signatures and request a final vote on the topic.

Most changed law come into force at January 1st.

Considering today ist the 264 day of the year a change on January 1st 2017 is within reach.
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  #27  
Old 20.09.2016, 18:36
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Re: SKN - abolished

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I'm not a dog owner but I've always been impressed at how responsible dog owners are here in Switzerland.

I'd like to think that the SKN courses make a difference to at least some of the people in how they interact with their dogs and, how they and their dogs interact with others.
I also liked that those wanting to work as dog walkers/carers had to take the course. Many folks love dogs but don't know how to properly handle them.

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...I just find it funny that because 20% didn't do the course they decide to abolish it. I should perhaps call my bank and tell them since I paid 20% of my debt already, the other insignificant 80% should be abolished...
I'm agree!
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  #28  
Old 25.09.2016, 12:51
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Re: SKN - abolished

Passing on a reminder from our trainer, via the BLV, that the law remains in place until the end of the year. Which means that anyone who acquires a dog from now until the end of the year is still required to do the SKN.

---

While no one knows what will happen in the future, it should be stressed that abolishing the federal SKN obligation does not change cantonal law. Laws that affect dog owners and commercial dog carers at the cantonal level remain in force.

There seems to be much talk of some of the cantons stepping up to require rather stricter training courses to replace the easy federal courses, including testing that an owner would have to pass. Training requirements might be linked to breeds or size, as in ZH, AG, GE, GL etc. And in other cantons nothing more might be required, the same laissez-faire attitudes we see today might prevail.

(GE is interesting, because the SKN Theory obligation is written into the cantonal dog law. An interesting cantonal/federal law issue... So Genevans, do make sure you understand how this plays out going forward.)

---

In short, all dog owners should keep an eye out for changes to their canton's dog control law. A good place to do so is the Tier Im Recht summary site, which is usually updated fairly quickly as changes are enacted.

http://www.tierimrecht.org/de/tiersc...echt/index.php
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  #29  
Old 25.09.2016, 15:10
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Re: SKN - abolished

I can see this creating more chaos. At least with a Federal law it was easy to know you needed to do something. If it stops at cantonal level with different rules in each it'll just confuse things even more and people just won't bother at all.
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  #30  
Old 25.09.2016, 16:02
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Re: SKN - abolished

I can hardly wait for the mixups:

"I bought my dog in another canton, so the rules of this canton shouldn't apply to me!" "I didn't know about rule so-and-so, thought it only applied to larger/smaller/green-haired breeds, so why should I bother?" "What? DOG RULES? I thought they didn't exist!" "Buuut - don't you agree that my doggie is more like a guinea pig? WHY should rules apply to him?"


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  #31  
Old 25.09.2016, 16:59
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Re: SKN - abolished

The GST (the Swiss veterinarian organization). Their position paper made many interesting points, including sugggestions for improvement - but one that that I believe speaks for the success of the SKN overall should be noted:

http://www.gstsvs.ch/fileadmin/media..._160722_de.pdf

Eine deutliche Abnahme von Bissverletzungen konnte zwar nicht belegt werden. Trotzdem stellen Kleintierärztinnen und Kleintierärzte in ihren Praxen fest, dass Hundehaltende ihre Tiere in den letzten Jahren besser unter Kontrolle haben.

Roughly:
A significant decrease of bite wounds could not be substantiated. Nevertheless Veterinarians note in their practices that in recent years dog owners have their animals better under control.

---

The major animal welfare groups supported keeping the SKN courses as well. The good folks at Hundeherz said it very well:

https://www.hundeherz.ch/news/abscha...e-hundefreunde

Jeder Hund hat es verdient, dass sein Halter wenigstens ein Minimum an „zeitgemässem Hundewissen“ besitzt. Auch jene Hunde die Pech hatten und an einen Besitzer geraten sind, der sich freiwillig nie wirklich mit dem Thema auseinandersetzen würde.

Roughly:
Every dog deserves an owner who has at least a minimum understanding of "current canine knowledge". Even those dogs who had the bad luck to have an owner who would voluntarily never really deal with the issue.

I would urge all EFers to read the Hundeherz article; it clearly lays out the case why the SKN, flawed though it was, was an important tool to better our dogs' lives, how parliament only looked at a narrow range of issues, and what may or may not come next.

---

I'll say it again:

No, the SKN was not perfect. There was lots of room for improvement, from better control of the quality of trainers to better control of compliance. Nonetheless it did make a difference in the general understanding of ownership responsibility. Abolishing the SKN was a very sad decision, a huge step backwards for dog welfare.

Last edited by meloncollie; 25.09.2016 at 17:21.
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  #32  
Old 25.09.2016, 17:01
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Re: SKN - abolished

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The GST (the Swiss veterinarian organization). Their position paper made many interesting points, including sugggestions for improvement - but one that that I believe speaks for the success of the SKN overall should be noted:

http://www.gstsvs.ch/fileadmin/media..._160722_de.pdf

Eine deutliche Abnahme von Bissverletzungen konnte zwar nicht belegt werden. Trotzdem stellen Kleintierärztinnen und Kleintierärzte in ihren Praxen fest, dass Hundehaltende ihre Tiere in den letzten Jahren besser unter Kontrolle haben.

Roughly:
A significant decrease of bite wounds could not be substantiated. Nevertheless Veterinarians note in their practices that in recent years dog owners have their animals better under control.

---

The major animal welfare groups supported keeping the SKN courses as well. The good folks at Hundeherz said it very well:

https://www.hundeherz.ch/news/abscha...e-hundefreunde

Jeder Hund hat es verdient, dass sein Halter wenigstens ein Minimum an „zeitgemässem Hundewissen“ besitzt. Auch jene Hunde die Pech hatten und an einen Besitzer geraten sind, der sich freiwillig nie wirklich mit dem Thema auseinandersetzen würde.

Roughly:
Every dog deserves an owner who has at least a minimum understanding of "current canine knowledge". Even those dogs had the bad luck to have an owner who would voluntarily never really deal with the issue.

I would urge all EFers to read the Hundeherz article; it clearly lays out the case why the SKN, flawed though it was, was an important tool to better our dogs' lives, how parliament only looked at a narrow range of issues - and what may or may not come next.

---

I'll say it again:

No, the SKN was not perfect. There was lots of room for improvement, from better control of the quality of trainers to better control of compliance. Nonetheless it did make a difference in the general understanding of ownership responsibility. Abolishing the SKN was a very sad decision, a huge step backwards for dog welfare.
If you let me know which parts of the Hundeherz article you think are the most important I might translate them for the EF later today - shoot me a PM or post on here.
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  #33  
Old 25.09.2016, 20:28
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Re: SKN - abolished

Here we go - first article in the widely read online newspaper.

It's about vets warning about the possibility of more dog bite attacks.

Schweiz am Sonntag says that the SKN courses were an important source of income for the CH dog trainers.

The president of the Swiss Cantonal Vet Association says that the course helped improve acceptance of dogs within our society. As many people as possible should be motivated to do the courses voluntarily. Not doing the courses would cause the knowledge regarding dog care to decrease. (This, IMO, would have a great potential of increasing fear among those who previously were indifferent/already fearful of dogs.)

Another vet says that, from an increase in the number of dog bites one cannot conclude that the cause of said bites is uselessness of the SKN course. Dogs aren't more dangerous, but more incidents are being reported.
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  #34  
Old 26.09.2016, 04:30
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Another vet says that, from an increase in the number of dog bites one cannot conclude that the cause of said bites is uselessness of the SKN course. Dogs aren't more dangerous, but more incidents are being reported.
The actual report is here: https://www.blv.admin.ch/dam/blv/de/...on_SKN_def.pdf

This may be the case. However the problem is that there are no clear figures one way or the other.

Based on some numbers from Kt. Zürich it seems that having taken the SKN has only a marginal influence on the likelihood that your dog bites somebody (and whatever other benefits the course may have, this is it's raison d'être) - but this is not a very rigourous study that has been prepared for the government.
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Old 26.09.2016, 10:44
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Re: SKN - abolished

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If you let me know which parts of the Hundeherz article you think are the most important I might translate them for the EF later today - shoot me a PM or post on here.
I'll do a quick summary of the points made in the article... just as soon as the Muttley Crew allow me a free slot in today's otherwise canine-centered calendar...
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  #36  
Old 26.09.2016, 11:14
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Another vet says that, from an increase in the number of dog bites one cannot conclude that the cause of said bites is uselessness of the SKN course. Dogs aren't more dangerous, but more incidents are being reported.
Well whatever we think about the benefits of these courses it is clear they were originally introduced with one simple goal; to reduce dog bites.

When you consider the size of this mandatory national undertaking, the number of trainers and courses and the number of owners who actually took the courses then you would expect to see a dramatic reduction in the number of dog bites.

It is a fact that the statistics do not show this for whatever reasons.

Let us hope the courses continue to be available and many owners take them voluntarily.

Sadly the types of owners who were the target of this legislation are the ones less likely to volunteer to take courses.
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Old 26.09.2016, 12:00
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Re: SKN - abolished

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Another vet says that, from an increase in the number of dog bites one cannot conclude that the cause of said bites is uselessness of the SKN course. Dogs aren't more dangerous, but more incidents are being reported.
This is a key point. While doctors and vets and police were supposed to report bites, prior to Oberglatt it was hit-and-miss if a report was made. Often those who were supposed to report bites simply didn't care to do the paperwork.

And of course response to a complaint depended, as it still often does, on who the parties are. Whether a report was made or action taken was highly subjective.

After the post-Oberglatt legislation came into force, not only did doctors and vets and police start to take reporting more seriously but also all professional dog trainers became mandatory reporters as well.

So new mandates to report meant that comparing pre- and post- Oberglatt figures was a bit of an apple/orange thing.

But logical statistical interpretation has never been our politican's forte.

---

I value the SKN courses primarily from a dog welfare standpoint.

There are far too many dogs whose owners do not understand that a dog needs training, socialization, mental stimulation in order to lead a full, 'artgerecht' life. And there are far too many dog owners who still have outdated ideas of force, fear, pain and 'dominance' in training - with the resulting stress and behavioral consequences. The SKN at least guaranteed that some basic canine behavioral science filtered down.

There are far too many dog owners here who fuel the illegal battery farm trade, or worse - far too many who do not even understand why buying a puppy from a dodgy internet site is problematic. The SKN Theory course at least made people aware of the 'dark side' - I know of dozens of folks who were about to buy a pup from a smuggler until the SKN class opened their eyes.

I saw the SKN as a chance to better the lot of Swiss dogs in addition to the improving public safety.

---

The whole raft of legislation that saw the creation of the SKN was politically motivated, and the abolishment of the SKN was as well. (Read up on Ruedi Noser.)

Incidents involving dogs will get worse without the SKN, as it was the only instrument we had to inform dog owners of their responsibilities, of current law. The SKN was a flawed tool, but it was our only tool to help dog owners to understand not only the need to do the right thing, but even what the right thing is.

Abolishing the SKN essentially said that there is no merit to the notion that training is the way forward. That is a very sad (and wholly incorrect) thought - but one that the anti-dog lobby will jump upon.

The next Oberglatt-like incident will likely see truly draconian measures as another wave of public hysteria sweeps the country.

Such a shame that the better course of action - fixing the flaws in the SKN legislation, especially wrt compliance control - was not considered. But that would have meant admitting to the complete snafu they made out of the roll-out and continued implementation. And admitting wrong is, of course, simply not done here.

Last edited by meloncollie; 26.09.2016 at 12:14.
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  #38  
Old 26.09.2016, 12:05
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Re: SKN - abolished

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So new mandates to report meant that comparing pre- and post- Oberglatt figures was a bit of an apple/orange thing.
That isn't really needed. Roughly 20% of dog owners neglect to take this course. If it is having a pronounced effect on dog bites, their dogs should, right now, be biting proportionately way more often than those of the responsible 80%.

This doesn't really seem to be the case, but there is no clear picture.
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Old 26.09.2016, 12:23
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Re: SKN - abolished

As non dogowner, and a person which is nor really fond of dogs (save a few which are very kind) I think the SKN course had a tremendous impact on dog owner behaviour.

People were more aware about their dogs and the do's and dont's.

Still, you could see pople having their dogs unleashed in the forrest during wild life protection months.

I read Nosers talk in the parliament. Honestly? It is brain fart logic. With the same argument you could lift the speed limits on autobahn, stop enforcing parking rules, or abolish all the other mandatory courses and trainings like: Ham Radio license, SAN Fishing Course, CZV for school bus drivers, WAB driving courses, Fire works, and the mandatory shooting for military personal.
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Old 26.09.2016, 12:37
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Re: SKN - abolished

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I'm not a dog owner but I've always been impressed at how responsible dog owners are here in Switzerland.

I'd like to think that the SKN courses make a difference to at least some of the people in how they interact with their dogs and, how they and their dogs interact with others.

Not for me though. We took the training, and I can say that it was the most useless sessions of anything I have attended in my life. Even worst than some meetings at the office! Maybe also because we have a gentle dog and not an agressive one :-)
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