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Old 17.08.2017, 14:12
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Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Hi all,

My dog was stopped with his trainer while out on a walk by the Police two weeks ago. He's a 2 year old Beauceron, and his trainer works with him roughly once a month or so, so knows the dog well. The reason for the stop was officially because he was wearing a choke chain, unofficially because one of the neighbours called the cops as she saw a strange man with two big dogs walking around (ours and a giant schnauzer). Before anyone gets their knickers knotted, the choke chain is locked, we use it as a very non restrictive collar. The police that showed up apparently randomly was police du chien and a regular police man - when they went back to the house with our trainer, they went to scan our guy, who quite naturally when approached by two strangers head on, with a machine in their hand, growled at them. This was enough for us to be reported to the canton for having a potentially dangerous dog...this led to a visit from a cantonal vet and a colleague to our house, and a the following slightly worrying series of outcomes...

1) Dog has to have the dangerous dog comportment test
2) Dog is not allowed stay in a crate overnight (our crate is massive, he can stand up, turn around, do the hokey cokey inside it, there'd be room for 2 beaucerons if we wanted in it)
3) if dog is in the crate at any time, day or night, he MUST have access to OUTSIDE the crate...

So my questions - trivial first

What the fark is wrong with crating my dog? We've spent a lot of time crate training, i'm not going to undo that work. Has anyone else heard or seen of ANY regulation pertaining to NOT crating your dog? The cantonal dog control guy seemed to indicate that this was part of the general regulation allowing for dogs to have free access to the world/family etc. Hes in the crate when we're out of the house and when its bedtime...Anytime anyone is in the house, he's free. Max time he's in the crate ever during the day would be 4hours (from when i leave around 9 till the Mrs lets him out around 12:30 normally)

and non trivial - has anyone else had to take the comportment test? I know whats involved, only really worried about the recall component as his is ok but not fab - he is somewhat protective aggressive which is mainly the nature of the breed but we are working on it...he's only 2 which is still young for a beauce...

Helps!
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Old 17.08.2017, 14:44
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...0000/455.1.pdf

Quote:
Art. 71 Bewegung
1 Hunde müssen täglich im Freien und entsprechend ihrem Bedürfnis ausgeführt
werden. Soweit möglich sollen sie sich dabei auch unangeleint bewegen können.
2 Können sie nicht ausgeführt werden, so müssen sie täglich Auslauf haben. Der
Aufenthalt im Zwinger oder an der Laufkette gilt nicht als Auslauf.
3 Angebunden gehaltene Hunde müssen sich während des Tages mindestens fünf
Stunden frei bewegen können. In der übrigen Zeit müssen sie sich in einem Bereich
von mindestens 20 m2 an einer Laufkette bewegen können. Sie dürfen nicht mit
einem Zughalsband angebunden werden.
Quote:
Art. 72 Unterkunft, Böden
1 Für Hunde, die im Freien gehalten werden, müssen eine Unterkunft und ein geeigneter
Liegeplatz vorhanden sein. Ausgenommen sind Herdenschutzhunde, während
sie eine Herde bewachen.
2 Hunden muss geeignetes Liegematerial zur Verfügung stehen.
3 Hunde dürfen nicht auf perforierten Böden gehalten werden.
4 Bei Boxenhaltung und bei Zwingerhaltung müssen die Gehege den Anforderungen
nach Anhang 1 Tabelle 10 entsprechen.47
4bis Bei Boxenhaltung und bei Zwingerhaltung müssen für jeden Hund eine erhöhte
Liegefläche und eine Rückzugsmöglichkeit vorhanden sein. In begründeten Fällen,
namentlich bei kranken oder alten Tieren, kann auf die Rückzugsmöglichkeit verzichtet
werden.48
5 Nebeneinander liegende Zwinger oder Boxen müssen mit geeigneten Sichtblenden
versehen sein.
Seems to me they are correct about the crate. Swiss don't like crates and it seems yours is in it for up to 12 hours a day (by 8 hours of sleep), then you better devote a whole room for the dog according the rules.

Also your dog is big and growled against them, so yes they can demand such test.

Btw i just assume you are among the 80% in this country who can read German.
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Old 17.08.2017, 15:08
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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Btw i just assume you are among the 80% in this country who can read German.
Here a link to the current and actual version of the above text (Tierschutzverordnung/Ordonnance sur la protection des animaux), where you can change language on the top right. For convenience the French version https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classifi...796/index.html

Also read the corresponding law, in particular Art. 24
Quote:
1 L'autorité compétente intervient immédiatement lorsqu'il est constaté que des animaux sont négligés ou que leurs conditions de détention sont totalement inappropriées. Elle peut les séquestrer préventivement et leur fournir un gîte approprié, aux frais du détenteur; si nécessaire, elle fait vendre ou mettre à mort les animaux. A cet effet, elle peut faire appel aux organes de police.
Here a link to the German web version of the full law. https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...103/index.html
You can change language on top right corner.


Your canton may be a bit faster acting than canton Thurgau, which, after several days of protest confiscated and sold horses held in dire contions: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/authori...-case/43398526
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Old 17.08.2017, 15:12
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Maybe their is comportment tests for owners too

The rules are in place, what you think is irrelevant, either follow them and do what they say or pay the consequences.

They have been developed in conjunctiuon iwth professional people, vets and the suchlike and they have decided dogs living in crates is unacceptable.

Expect a few more visits to make sure you comply with the regulations.
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Old 17.08.2017, 15:56
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Magnamax,

Being reported as potentially dangerous is serious. Please, from now on comply to the letter and spirit of Swiss law - for your dog's sake you MUST adopt your way of thinking, and of training/keeping your dog to not only Swiss law, but also to Swiss 'sensibilities'.


I worry that you seem to be saying you will do things your way, that you do not accept that 'the Swiss way' requires something different of you. Please, for your dog's sake, let go of that attitude. Yes, many of us are faced with a bit of 're-thinking' our ideas of what it takes to be a good dog owner to fit into expectations here that differ from expectations at home. In order to live here harmoniously with your dog, you MUST understand Swiss ideas of ownership responsibility, and you MUST be willing to adapt where the law requires.

As has been pointed out in the above posts, a choke chain is forbidden. Punkt, fertig. See art 73 of the TSchV linked above.

A martingale is allowed, though, if set so that choking the dog is not possible. Concerned neighbors will see a half-stop collar and question it, as these look for all the world like a choke collar. Folks who use martingales usually use the fabric version for that very reason. But as one should know, an inappropriately set martingale can also choke a dog - it is the choking action which is forbidden.

Over use of restricting movement is not allowed either. Crating is allowed for short periods, but a dog should not be left in a crate for long periods of time. This is a flash point for many Swiss, as the idea of crate training is not accepted here -largely because many who use it do not understand the fundamentals and instead use the crate as abusive restriction of movement.

Yes, I do see merit in appropriate crate training for housetraining young puppies, for getting dogs used to travel crates, for creating a 'den' that the dog sees as a safe space, as a controlled place for a dog to go temporarily when necessary, for instance when workmen enter the house who are afraid of dogs.

But a crate should not be used for confinement of an adult dog for any length of time. Rather, many people leave the crate set up but with the door taken off so that the dog can come and go as he wishes.

I'm afraid that 4 hours is abusive restriction of the dog's ability to move. Take the door off the crate. That way your dog has his 'den', but can move as he sees fit.


When you need to confine a dog in your absence, use a room instead. I do this whenever I have a newbie in the introductory management phase where leaving the dog alone with the other residents dogs without supervision is not wise. I turn the guest room into a 'newbie den' and put a baby gate at the door so the dog can still see what is going on. That way everyone is kept safe, and the dogs all have appropriate spaces and ability to move about.


---

Now that you are on the Veterinäramt's radar you MUST comply in both letter and spirit.

Your trainer should know what test is used in VD; what a Wesenstest entails differs by canton/Gemeinde. Some use the Köln test, which is indeed difficult to master. Some use a much more relaxed test, really a meet and greet sort of thing. Ask your trainer for advice and please, take this seriously!

I don't know VD at all, but I found this example of a Wesenstest on the VD website:

http://www.vd.ch/fileadmin/user_uplo...on_05.2013.pdf

It would behoove you to work on the exercises given - but again, in the first instance speak to your trainer. Your trainer can be a valuable resource here, he or she should be able to support you in your interaction with the Veterinäramt.


----

I'll hop on my soapbox again. This thread shows exactly why THE SKN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED!

I fully understand that it is difficult to find information on dog law in Switzerland if you don't know that these laws exist - and most people, Eidgenoss new dog owners included - don't know that they do. The SKN was the way most people learned of Swiss dog law for the first time.

And now we have lost that vehicle. And our dogs will suffer for their owner's lack of information - as yours has.

---

Read the TSchV, commit the articles covering dog law (Art 68-79, plus other bits on education, commercial activity, general banns and restrictions, and the various table at the end) to heart:

https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifi...796/index.html

Be aware that the TSchV is federal law covering animal welfare. Dog control is a second level of law and is the competency of the cantons. Each has it's own law and these vary significantly. You must learn, and follow, the law in your canton as well as federal law.

A good summary of each canton's dog law can be found on the Tier Im Recht website, here:

https://tierimrecht.org/de/recht/hunderecht/

---

Please, take this seriously!

Last edited by meloncollie; 17.08.2017 at 16:12.
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Old 17.08.2017, 19:22
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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I'll hop on my soapbox again. This thread shows exactly why THE SKN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABOLISHED!
JUST AS WELL WE DID IT BEFORE IT WAS ABOLISHED SO.

Thank you for the reply, very much appreciated. Its easy to "fix" the crating issue in line with any concerns the vet may have, it didn't cross my mind for a second that it would be an issue. The challenges for Vaud i was aware of but i hadn't seen the score sheet part of the PDF before, that's extremely helpful.
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Old 18.08.2017, 03:54
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Magnamax, might I ask why you are using a choke collar, even if set to stop?

Have you considered using a halter rather than attaching the lead to the collar?

All my dogs wear harnesses, various types for various situations, from lighter everyday harnesses ( http://www.ruffwear.com/Front-Range-Harness ) to more sturdy harness for mountain hiking ( http://www.ruffwear.com/30102-web-master-harness ). There are many different harness designs, these are just two I especially like. Walking on a harness is more comfortable for my dogs, and for me.

One reason I am so against the use of choke collars and even martingales is because of what happened to the Belltie. When I adopted him he had a chronic cough, which on investigation turned out to be CB - and a collapsing trachea. Fluroscopy showed significant damage, the vet said injuries to his trachea were consistant with choke collar use. According to the shelter staff, he had been brought in wearing a chain collar.

The damage meant life long medical therapy.

Fast foreward to the day we had to make a mad dash to the vet when he suddenly could not breathe... A fully collapsed trachea is horrific, trust me.

The throat is far more vulnerable than many realize, it's easy to inadvertently injure a dog. The vet told me that most of the throat injuries he sees are in strongly built dogs, not little delicate ones as you'd imagine, because owners of strong dogs often don't realize how much pressure they are putting on the dog's throat.

If you are using the collar because of control concerns, while you are training out that behavior please do consider switching to a harness.
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Old 18.08.2017, 08:23
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Good question. When he's walked we use a two point harness (chest and back) , and i attach a lead to his chain as well to have some head control. The rest of the time he's ambling about with just the chain on, its less restrictive on him than any other as its light and not tight. Will get rid of it completely, we don't use it as a corrective and its benefit as a lightweight connection point is not enough to justify. I still need a collar though..
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Old 18.08.2017, 08:46
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

I've put a baby gate in the kitchen doorway.
This way my dog is locked in the kitchen but can still see the the rest of apartment, which I think is better than a closed room.
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Old 18.08.2017, 17:37
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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I still need a collar though..
For control have you discussed trying a Halti harness with your trainer? I have never used one so can't speak from personal experience, but I know a couple owners who have used them and were happy.

https://www.companyofanimals.co.uk/p.../halti-harness

(Some dogs need desensitization work done before using a Halti or similar.)



Except for the Belltie, mine wear simple rolled leather buckle collars, fairly loose, leads never attached. The only purpose the collars serve is to hold their ID tags.

(The Belltie does not wear a collar at all due to his CB/trachea, rather his ID tags are attached to the harness. Not that the Ancient Wobbly One could bumble out of my reach these days...)

Last edited by meloncollie; 18.08.2017 at 17:49.
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Old 18.08.2017, 17:44
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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JUST AS WELL WE DID IT BEFORE IT WAS ABOLISHED SO.

Thank you for the reply, very much appreciated. Its easy to "fix" the crating issue in line with any concerns the vet may have, it didn't cross my mind for a second that it would be an issue. The challenges for Vaud i was aware of but i hadn't seen the score sheet part of the PDF before, that's extremely helpful.
If you did the course how did you not know that a choke collar is illegal here? Was this not mentioned/discussed by the trainer?
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Old 18.08.2017, 18:21
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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If you did the course how did you not know that a choke collar is illegal here? Was this not mentioned/discussed by the trainer?
Same goes for the crate i'd say.

And choke collars with a stop are legal as far as i know.

Edit: Looked it up and they are perfectly legal. (have you done the course )
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Old 18.08.2017, 18:23
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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Same goes for the crate i'd say.

And choke collars with a stop are legal as far as i know.
OP underestimated how nosy the Swiss are & thought they could get away with it as it was a silly law that did not matter breaking.
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Old 18.08.2017, 18:28
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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OP underestimated how nosy the Swiss are & thought they could get away with it as it was a silly law that did not matter breaking.
The impact and amount of nosy people in this country should not be underestimated.

However in this case for the good, people who crate their dog 12 hours a day should in my opinion buy a goldfish.
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Old 18.08.2017, 19:03
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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For control have you discussed trying a Halti harness with your trainer? I have never used one so can't speak from personal experience, but I know a couple owners who have used them and were happy.
Not super-useful feedback, but I used a Halti harness on my dog (an Australian Shepherd) and it worked pretty well -- for about three weeks. Then my dog bit straight through the leash part of the harness with one bite.

Apart from the complexity of the system -- they're a bit difficult to put together, at first -- I'd say that Halti harnesses do the job.
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Old 18.08.2017, 19:04
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Quote:
The impact and amount of nosy people in this country should not be underestimated.

However in this case for the good, people who crate their dog 12 hours a day should in my opinion buy a goldfish.
I don't think a goldfish would entertain a crated dog for very long. Maybe a TV? Or a cat?
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Old 18.08.2017, 19:11
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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OP underestimated how nosy the Swiss are & thought they could get away with it as it was a silly law that did not matter breaking.
Quote:
The impact and amount of nosy people in this country should not be underestimated.

However in this case for the good, people who crate their dog 12 hours a day should in my opinion buy a goldfish.
You are both wrong. A choke chain is only illegal as pointed out above if it is used to choke. Did you not bother to read the OP? The neighbours who complained weren't mine, they are the neighbours of a house our trainer was minding while the owners were away.

If we were to replace our raw meat fed, walked 2 hours a day, in a house with a large garden, much loved Beauceron, with a goldfish, it'd want to be a pretty special goldfish...

Sorry for asking the question in the first place, wont bother me arse next time. For the positive contributors, thank you very much for your help, meloncollie particularly!!!!
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Old 18.08.2017, 19:30
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

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You are both wrong. A choke chain is only illegal as pointed out above if it is used to choke. Did you not bother to read the OP? The neighbours who complained weren't mine, they are the neighbours of a house our trainer was minding while the owners were away.

If we were to replace our raw meat fed, walked 2 hours a day, in a house with a large garden, much loved Beauceron, with a goldfish, it'd want to be a pretty special goldfish...

Sorry for asking the question in the first place, wont bother me arse next time. For the positive contributors, thank you very much for your help, meloncollie particularly!!!!
Your OP says nothing about when a choke chain could be legal and when not, I on the other hand placed a link which does state so, heck I even refer to it later again, and fatmanfilms also never said your chain would be illegal. Also I say nowhere (or does anybody else) it's your neighbours who complained.

And you tell us we don't bother to read....

As for not bothering to read, why did you never bother to read up on the Swiss laws instead of breaking them?

Last edited by EdwinNL; 18.08.2017 at 20:33.
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Old 18.08.2017, 19:59
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Crates are not illegal. The length of time our dog is in his crate seems to exceed what's allowed. That's fine, And easily fixed, it was always a temporary measure ,instituted in the first place to give him somewhere of his own to use as a den (he was treating the whole house and garden as his territory, which isn't ideal). I am now fully up to speed with the views of EF on crating and of the relevant swiss law on a dogs right to freedom of movement. He'll be sleeping on his mat with the crate door open now, problem solved. For the rest, I'm not sure he'll score that well on his comportment test, but we'll work on it!
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Old 18.08.2017, 20:23
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Re: Police intervention with my Dog!!!!

Maybe, as you so concerned about the dog, you could sleep closed in a crate for 12 hours a day, for a week (incl. weekend)

Come and tell us how you got on.

The next week we can have a go with thr choke chain, but only after completing the week in the crate

PS. Difficult to understand why you didn't know all this as you have done the SKN course and this was always part of the course.....
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