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Old 15.03.2018, 10:54
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American Bulldog in Zurich area

Hello, I plan on moving to Zurich from abroad but I have an American Bulldog.

Now I see that it's not in the list of banned breeds but it also should not have more than 10% overlap with any of the banned breeds.

I am a bit worried as the American Bulldog is a related breed to the banned ones.

Can anyone give me more specific info on what kind of test should be performed and how can I do it? It is imperative for me to do this test ASAP as this is blocking me from taking the decision.

(P.S. - are there other cantons near Zurich where no such restrictions are imposed?)
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Old 15.03.2018, 11:08
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

This thread may help until our resident dog expert Meloncollie can chip in.

https://www.englishforum.ch/pet-corn...questions.html

As for living in another canton, that depends on your nationality to a certain extent and also what type of permit you end up with. EU nationals with either an L or a B permit can live and work anywhere in Switzerland. Non-EU's have to ask permission to change cantons since a new permit has to be issued if the change is allowed. Otherwise you have to live in the same canton that your workplace is based in.

"Art. 36 Place of residence

Persons with a short stay permit, a residence or a permanent residence permit are free to choose their place of residence within the canton that granted the permit.

Art. 37 Change of the place of residence to another canton

1 Persons with a short stay permit or a residence permit who would like to relocate their place of residence to another canton must apply for the appropriate permit from the new canton beforehand.

2 Persons with a residence permit are entitled to move to another canton provided they are not unemployed and there are no grounds for revocation in terms of Article 62 paragraph 1.

3 Persons with a permanent residence permit are entitled to move to another canton, provided there are no grounds for revocation in terms of Article 63."

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...index.html#a36
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Old 15.03.2018, 11:30
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Thanks, I am coming from the EU and I am not sure about the permit I might get but the intention is to move and work there long term.

I am mostly curious where can I do the DNA test - is there a specific laboratory or a process in place?

My VET has no information, I've tried http://www.animalabs.com/ in Croatia so far but they said they don't do such tests and pointed me to dnamydog.com which is a Canadian company..

I am thinking that there surely must be a way to do it within Europe/Switzerland, given that such laws exist?

Last edited by 3Wishes; 15.03.2018 at 17:16. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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Old 15.03.2018, 11:43
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Not sure a DNA test would help if it doesn't give you percentages.
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Old 15.03.2018, 13:02
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Slaymer, you are right that the American Bulldog is not on the banned or restricted list in Zürich. So theoretically you should have no problem in canton ZH.
IIRC Tessin is the canton that specifically includes the American Bulldog in it's restricted list.


ETA:

In checking something else, I came across this from the Zürich Veterinäramt 'FAQ Hunde' from April of 2017:

https://veta.zh.ch/internet/gesundhe..._Hunde_def.pdf

The following on page 4 is important, the list of banned breeds has at some recent point been expanded/clarified:

"Sind American Bullys oder American Pocket Bullys erlaubt?
Bei diesen beiden handelt es sich um Mischlinge, bei denen Hunde des Rassetypen II eingekreuzt wurden. Deshalb sind sie verboten."


Translation:

Q: Are American Bullys or American Pocket Bully allowed?
A: Both these are treated as mixed breeds that were crossed with one of the List 2 breed types. Therefore they are banned.


It's a reasoned guess that 'American Bullys' refers to American Bulldogs, in which case you cannot move to canton Zürich. You should clarify that definitively with the Zürich Veterinäramt, of course, contact details below. But start your move plans looking at the non-BSL cantons I mention below.


--------------------------------------

(Picking up with the rest of my original post, most of which still applies, or is useful information for other who might read this thread):

HOWEVER...

In most cantons the listed breeds go by not only breed/DNA but also by phenotype. That is, a dog of a breed that is not listed can nonetheless be declared restricted/banned if his physical characteristics resemble closely enough the characteristics of the listed breeds.

Here is a sad story from canton Basel, where an American Bulldog puppy was judged to look similar enough to a banned breed that the cantonal Veterinäramt told the owner the dog would have to move out of the canton or risk seizure. The puppy found a home with family in another canton, thank goodness.

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...hund--14488808

Because the American Bulldog is not an FCI recognized breed, because it is one that is not common here, there can be confusion. And confusion can make your life here difficult. Remember the infamous 'spot the pittbull' test floating around cyberspace? Very few average folk, and too few so-called experts, correctly identified the dogs. Given the possible consequences, I would not want to bet my dog's welfare on a bureaucrat getting it right.

I don't live in Zürich, so I don't know how the Veterinäramt enforces cantonal dog law these days. To be certain, contact the Veterinäramt and askL
https://veta.zh.ch/internet/gesundhe...e/kontakt.html

---

Were it me I'd take the simple route and steer clear of the cantons banning the other bull breeds. Make your life easier, live in a canton where you are less likely to be constantly having to respond to people who think your dog is something else.

Why not look into living in canton SZ, ZG, LU, or SG? Depending on where you will be working these can be quite easy commutes into Zürich.

If you decide to live in Zürich, (Edited this out, as per above new info you should assume you cannot live in ZH.)

No matter where you live, choose your housing wisely. Most problems arise not because of officialdom, but rather because a neighbor with a bee in his bonnet takes against you for some reason - and denounces your dog as a way to get to you.

---

I'll freely admit, I am more paranoid than most. But my paranoia springs from the experiences I had during the worst of the anti-dog campaigns of 2005-2006. Back in those dark days there were times I actually feared for my dogs' (collies and shelties!) safety given the media-hyped hysteria of the time. Sure, those days are behind us, but they taught me to look at people around me in a wholly different light.

It should be remembered that the current ZH breed bans came into effect as the result of a popular vote.

The pendulum seems to swing regularly when it comes to the general public's attitudes towards dogs. Right now we seem to be in a period where dogs are more welcomed than in the last decade. We have seen some of the laws that came out of the hysterical years being rolled back. But I, paranoid that I am, cannot forget that it is a pendulum.


---

Wherever you decide to live, please - for your dog's sake - make sure you are an exemplary dog owner at all times. Everyone should do this, of course - but those with large dogs, dogs of certian breeds need to be aware that every time we go out we are in effect ambassadors for our breeds and for canine kind.

With that in mind, once you land here please consider joining a dog school or club, take classes to give you and your dog a soft landing. There are many possibilities, but a good start would be the new National Hundehalterbrevet course, especially the Theory course. Check out the thread discussing the course for more info.
https://www.englishforum.ch/pet-corn...g-program.html


---------

ETA: (The paragraph below likely no longer applies, as per above ruling on American Bullies means you cannot live in ZH. But I'm leaving the List 1 required course explanation intact, as it is useful info for others who might read this thread.)

At present in canton ZH the List 1 training course requirements are still in force for dogs over 45cm/15kg. There is a motion in parliament to abolish this requirement, it has gone through a first reading and (if I understand parliamentary procedure correctly) now awaits a second reading. So for now, if you chose to move to ZH you would have to do the List 1 courses. This may soon change, keep your eyes on the Veterinäramt site. Current List 1 mandatory courses are explained here:
https://veta.zh.ch/internet/gesundhe...usbildung.html

----------

Canton Zürich has published a Code of Conduct for Dog Owners covering expectations - please read it carefully. The points covered there are applicable to all dog owners, everywhere.
https://veta.zh.ch/internet/gesundhe...12englisch.pdf


Goog luck with the move, may you and your pooch enjoy your Swiss adventure.

Last edited by meloncollie; 16.03.2018 at 00:32. Reason: Important information added.
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Old 15.03.2018, 13:05
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

AFAIK Embark does percentages. Not sure though, if they deliver to where you are.
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Old 15.03.2018, 23:25
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

I really do not understand why people keep dogs that pose serious risks to society.....there are so many other dog breeds to choose from

see what can happen:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-37129134

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...g-cry-13002516

http://metro.co.uk/2017/01/08/child-...lldog-6367666/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/13/helencarter

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/comm...gs650-stitches

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/b...-a3368966.html

... do we really need this ???
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Old 16.03.2018, 00:54
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area


That is completely off topic and one quite useless comment.

Concerning my dog I can tell you it's a very tender and loving animal and a pet and in no way possible a risk to anyone!

Posting these links in my thread shows only ignorance.
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Old 16.03.2018, 01:00
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Slaymer, going on the assumption that you cannot live in ZH, might I ask:

Where in Zurich will the job be? If the city, which side of the lake helps, as it makes a difference in your commute. And of course, do you anticipate needing to commute by public transportation or by car?

Knowing these things would help us advise on which among the various non-BSL cantons might suit you and your dog best.
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Old 16.03.2018, 10:54
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

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Slaymer, going on the assumption that you cannot live in ZH, might I ask:

Where in Zurich will the job be? If the city, which side of the lake helps, as it makes a difference in your commute. And of course, do you anticipate needing to commute by public transportation or by car?

Knowing these things would help us advise on which among the various non-BSL cantons might suit you and your dog best.
Hello, thank you for the help - I still haven't gotten through all the info you the first post.

I assume my workplace will be located somewhere around District 1.

I am very determined once I get there to find a place at the outskirts of the city or even outside of it - so commuting from another canton is definately an option - I like to think that I'll find a place near a park/forest/more remote and secluded area.

So the cantons you mentioned have no banned breeds whatsoever?
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Old 16.03.2018, 11:19
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Let me be clear - Making the assumption that 'American Bully' = American bulldog, commuting from another canton is your ONLY option.



ZG, SZ, LU, SG do not at present ban or restrict dogs based on breed or phenotype. These cantons are your best bet IMO.

If you will be working in Kreis 1, these four cantons are easily commutable into the Zürich HB. 45-60 minute commute, door-to-door details depending. Look at the towns in those cantons bordering canton Zürich, or concentrate on towns with direct connection to Zürich HB.

---
Other neigboring cantons:

Cantons AG restricts rather than bans the American Bully. But you would have to understand the hoops you and your dog would have to go through to gain a permit, you would have to think carefully whether your dog could happily live with the restrictions (specific training classes, leash, potential for a muzzle order), and you would have to have a Plan B if your request for a permit to keep your dog were denied. I wouldn't consider it for a minute, too much risk to my dog IMO.

Canton TG is a BSL canton. American Bullys are not on the list, but the wording includes 'Hunderassen und-gruppen' and 'auch Kreuzungen mit solchen Rassen und Einzelhunde, deren äusseres Erscheinungsbild vermuten lässt' which to me signals phenotyping. Again, far too much risk for my palate. (TG was notorious for it's stance during the hysteria years, another reason I would not even consider it.)

Canton SH, another BSL canton that restricts certain breeds. American Bullys are not on the list but the law uses the word 'Rassentyp' - again this could mean potential for phenotying. I would again have the same concerns as above, too much risk.

---

Bottom line, were it me I would not for a moment consider a canton where there were even a remote chance my dog would be affected by BSL.

---

Be aware that dog law is a moving target, changes are always possible, dog owners have to keep abreast of new developments, changes in attitudes, etc.


Good luck with your decisions, and with the move.

Last edited by meloncollie; 16.03.2018 at 11:34.
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Old 16.03.2018, 13:19
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Thanks for the information. Just for the record, the bully is a different type of dog.. but yet again, I guess they all might be put in the same basked.
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Old 16.03.2018, 13:33
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

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Thanks for the information. Just for the record, the bully is a different type of dog.. but yet again, I guess they all might be put in the same basked.
What you need to do is to write the Zürich Veterinaramt and ask for a ruling. Write in English if your German isn't up to it, they generally have no problem.

And may I ask you to post the response here? It would be interesting to see what they say.
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Old 16.03.2018, 15:02
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

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What you need to do is to write the Zürich Veterinaramt and ask for a ruling. Write in English if your German isn't up to it, they generally have no problem.

And may I ask you to post the response here? It would be interesting to see what they say.
Will do
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Old 17.03.2018, 08:24
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

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Will do
I would add that you should send photos (close ups of the head - front, side, top; overall body etc. ) and "dimensions" of the dog along with the email/letter.

I have the feeling that a good part of the "selection" process by the kantonal vet office is based on the look or aspect of the dog.
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Old 17.03.2018, 09:25
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Woah, stop the presses! (Again )

I found this overview of the various 'SOKA' breeds by canton, sourced from a group called Listenhunde Hilfe, that says the American Bulldog is a List 1 in Zürich, which is a game changer.

http://www.paperlapap.ch/pdf/Listenh...ze-Schweiz.pdf

If that is the case, then we are back to the original thought, that Slaymer's dog just has to comply with the List 1 (over45cm/15kg) requirements.


Now - I cannot find the source group online, and of course an interest group is not an official arbitrator. So were it me I'd still want confirmation from the Veterinäramt. So:


First, does your dog have a pedigree, Slaymer? If so, from what umbrella organization? This is important info.


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I would add that you should send photos (close ups of the head - front, side, top; overall body etc. ) and "dimensions" of the dog along with the email/letter.

I have the feeling that a good part of the "selection" process by the kantonal vet office is based on the look or aspect of the dog.
I agree that writing is the way to go, but I would save pics, etc for a possible next step.

The question at hand is whether or not 'American Bully' is being used as just another name for a AmStaff or Pit type dog, or whether it refers to an American Bulldog.
There is too much tossing around of vague terms, that is the root of this problem.


In Slaymer's first inquiry to the Veterinäramt IMO he should only state the breed, mention that he is pedigreed if that is the case, keep the question general.

If ZH recognizes the American Bulldog as only List 1, that's enough then, no need for further quesitons or action, let's not invoke phenotyping unnecessarily.

Phenotyping is meaningless - heck, half the pedigreed to the 10th generation labradors could be made to fit the phenotype - but give a bureaucrat something to measure and thus pretend that there is 'hard science' to fall back on and you've handed them an excuse.

If the response from the Veterinäramt is negative, the next step is to decide if it's worth fighting the phenotype or if it would be better to drop it and move elsewhere.

I'd also suggest that Slaymer first should contact Swiss American Bulldog breeders. There are not many, but these folks should know what the Swiss attitude is, and could advise him. For instance, google throws up this:

http://www.americanbulldog.ch



ETA:

Were it me, no matter what the outcome from the ZH Veterinäramt, I'd still consider SZ or ZG. Easy commute to Zürich, save a bundle on taxes... and no worries.

Regardless of the official Veterinäramt ruling, Slaymer will have to deal with the Hans Ueli Hundehassers of the world, people who see any large muscular breed as monsters. The poster who popped in with his anti Molosser links is typical of attitudes one runs into more often in Zürich than in other non BSL cantons - again, the breed bans came about in response to a popular vote.

I would want to make my life, and my dog's, easier and so would opt to live in a non-BSL canton.

Last edited by meloncollie; 17.03.2018 at 10:05.
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Old 17.03.2018, 10:25
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

@ MC

I have to disagree with your idea of not sending photos right away.

As you mention there will 100% be a Hans Ueli Hundehasser living in the same building or across the street. The dog WILL be reported at some point in time.

So, the OP gets an ok - List 1 response (without photos) then finds a nice apt. in ZH and along comes Hans Ueli. At that point, the OP will be taking the dog in for a check and since he was "sneeky" about not showing the dog, the Vet. will not be inclined to rule in his favour. Then the OP is out looking for a new apt. and a temporary home for his dog in another Kanton. Is this a worst case scenario? Yes, but it can very likely happen.

My suggestion is be up front, get the news - good or bad and then deal with it. One email with photos should get you an answer. If the ZH vet has "seen" the dog and ruled List 1. Hans Ueli can go stuff himself. The OP will have the proof that the dog have been fully reviewed.

Just so the OP knows the background of your "popular vote" comment. My understanding was it was taken after one or more children/infants were attacked and severely maimed by dog(s) now on the restricted list.
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Old 17.03.2018, 12:56
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Let's have a picture of the dog in question!
See what all the fuss is about.
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Old 17.03.2018, 13:24
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

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@ MC

I have to disagree with your idea of not sending photos right away.

As you mention there will 100% be a Hans Ueli Hundehasser living in the same building or across the street. The dog WILL be reported at some point in time.
Good points.

When it comes to the welfare of our four footed family members, better safe than sorry.

(And better ZG, SZ, LU, SG. )


And just to emphasize - Slaymer, does your dog have a pedigree from a recognizable umbrella group? The American Bulldog is not FCI, but some offshoot clubs are considered acceptable here. (There are many that are not, though, as with the rise of puppy farming a lot of fake clubs have been created.)

Without a pedigree, though, we are back to phenotype and all the ensuing problems.
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Old 19.03.2018, 11:36
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Re: American Bulldog in Zurich area

Guys thank you really for all that information!

I will try to address as much as I can in a latter post but for now I can say this:

American Bulldog is a different breed from American Bully - these two actually even look differently!

The american bulldog looks more like a bigger pitbull or a staffordshire terrier.

Here is my dog in particular:

https://tinyurl.com/ya65782h

I do not think I have any serious proof about the breed, I got him as a present and I was told it is an American Bulldog (also looks like one). Of course the dog has a valid EU pet passport where it says it is American Bulldog but that's just something I've typed in there myself..

Not sure how this will work with proving the breed.
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