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Old 16.10.2019, 21:10
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I did not come to "snark" just pointed out from your very long post the house is fairly small with no garden for a 70kg + dog and another fairly large dog of 38-40kgs who " He is not allowed off because he is a little bit of a murderer of small animals" so obviously a handfull already.


I have no interest whatsoever about your situation, my comment was an observation on a public forum
My dog is not yet 70 kilos. And even if she was, so what? She is not a list dog, she is allowed here ( and let me make it clear, I do not agree with BSL at ALL ). She is allowed in my apartment, which is plenty large enough for US peasants to get by, wether or not by your standards it is acceptable. This is a public forum and I publicly disclosed what I needed in the way of getting advice, not for a critique of my living space because I cannot realistically blink myself into a bank loan and mortgage agreement. Not every Dane in CH lives in a house or mansion, and not every border collie gets a farm!

Unless you're going to cough up and match our savings to get a house with a garden, which we already have in progress, please fall back. BOTH my dogs are quite capable of scaling the fences you are most likely authorized to put up in Switzerland, meaning a garden although a luxury, would not solve my problems. Small animals would still be hurt if my hunting dog could have access, and the Dane forget about it.

As for my murderous one, he is a HUNTING dog. He is not about to sit and play Kumbaya with the little ones in the forest. So guess what, I don't ask him to! It is not fair! It is his nature and as I have stated he is leashed not due to aggression but due to prey drive. I am not going to punish him for what he is.

I saved him from being killed due to animal overpopulation in the states. In a Wohnung he has a much better life than he would have had if he got the needle in 24 hours because no one wanted him. We also have a GPS tracking system on his collar in case he gets loose. He goes to a Hundehort and to sessions in the fenced dog park at the school nearby so we can work in tandem on the recall of both dogs. He has plenty of time to romp, as does my other dog.. the only thing is they are NOT allowed to do is run amok in my apartment.. when we get a house, guess what... the same rules will still apply! I have committed to wiping drool from the walls, vacuuming up fur and lint rolling my clothes, but my furniture and vases and plants will not be overturned!

I know my dog, and have been given his history by the shelter where he came from. It is my duty to set my dogs up for success and not let their nature determine their failure. His digging and his tracking have been given marker words and commandments so he can be a dog within reason with positive reinforcement. Yet, because he is a dog, it is up to me to ensure we both still respect the nature reserves and small animals that live around him. The is the most I am willing to ask of him before I am at the point at which I am asking him to betray his nature. Yes, he is a handful, it cannot all go my way. I'd love to have a 100% model canine citizen, but no dog is 100% perfect. All we can do as owners is train and redirect their genetic natures. All I can do is create positive associations with him choosing me over the exciting stimulus every time. All I have is consistency and the ability to be more stubborn than my dog as stated upthread!

Now I see more training is much needed and I am willing to do so and have alerted my trainer to the incident. My husband is also doing training starting this month. I have all courses accounted for, and beyond already having a house and garden I have done the best I knew how to enable them to thrive where they are.

If I had come here and said "woe is me, my dogs are acting out because they have no garden... we only live in an apartment of 130 sm2 blah blah blah", your critique would be warranted. However, this was not the topic of my post, merely a detail that you took and ran with under the auspices of this being a public forum. My neighbors have Rottweilers, Rhodesians, Giant Schnauzers, and Borzoi here... so we are not rare specimens. You can google Great Dane and Mastiff breeds in apartment living and see for yourself what they are suited for.

I should not have a problem with my neighbors if there are 50+ kilo dogs living here, ONLY if my dogs do something wrong, which they have and I have 100% accepted in the most proactive manner possible. Our bank account, wallet, time, door, ALL are open to the neighbors. I have even offered to pay for any medical treatment that the dog may need beyond what has been indicated by the vet... ie.. accupuncture if she is moving funny or further classes with other dogs of all sizes so my neighbors' dog can feel safe around larger dogs despite this experience.

Let me also tell you that in Switzerland, when you are not making the fabled 120K salary, or even when you ARE and you don't want to throw all of your capital into securing a mortgage 130sm2 is VERY generous. I have toured houses, albeit with gardens, that are smaller than this, but would otherwise suit us fine. She is a dog the size of a human being, not an elephant FFS. She mostly sleeps during the day, curled in a ball in a Korbli or on her twin mattress adjacent to my Buro. My other dog is almost always curled up in my husband's Buro. it is not like I have two Great Pyrs stuck up in an apartment all day. They absolutely need an estate to patrol, livestock to bond with and protect. My dogs are suited to how we live.

I have been house sitting for a friend, walking my dog out of their private entryway hoping to get to a field, and guess what dog came to meet mine.. a small terrier, having the garden you espouse that we need, that was able to jump his fence off leash. I had to scream bloody murder for the family to get their dog who was chasing us up the road as we left the scene.

As I mentioned in this very long post of mine, this topic is very dear to me, a sore spot, and castigating me for my living situation is not at all helpful. I have experienced enough, with the language barrier, general assumptions about my competence and all. I am human and it has reach a boiling point.

I understand I opened myself up for criticism by posting this, and you are well within your right to respond however you choose. I am not trying to start a troll war or any of these other things that go on online.. I was actually afraid to post and it took me at least two days to reach out and take advice.

So again, I understand you are not here to snark, but understand I am passionate about this and dedicated to my animals and of course I am going to be defensive if you are criticising my living situation as if that is the reason we're having these problems... it is something far greater than not having a garden or "only" having a 130sm2 apartment (as though 130sm2 is nothing to sneeze at here ). Entering and exiting can happen anywhere there is a door at any time, and I am looking for ways I can build upon what I know to give my dogs the ability to refrain from overreacting in a surprise instance of close proximity to other dogs.

Eventually there will come a time when we pass dogs on a narrow road or in any other enclosed space and this behavior has to be managed and mitigated. I am watching my dogs always like a hawk, which also means surveying their environment, but I am not perfect and I have to be better as I know the first step to correcting behavior is preventing it in the first place.

RSC

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Castrate the lot!

Tom
Agreed.. snip snip.. chill chill.. I am not trying to be a fairy dog mother.. Nor deal with a bitch bleeding.. it is not a fun time.. trust me!

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The problem, as I see it, is not the apartment itself but the access outside, which is through common areas. This problem can also exist with houses which are built in groups.

Moving out "to the sticks" is not always a solution. You may have farmdogs who have never been trained and a farmer who thinks it is okay for the dog to be loose all the time. You have dog owners who view the countryside as an excuse to keep dogs off leash despite the fact that the dog has no recall ability. Then there are the dog owners with big fenced gardens who keep the dogs outside most of the day, with no walks, and these dogs bark at everyone and everything.

In apartment buidings where dogs are allowed it is up to the dog owner to assess how suitable the dwelling is. When the property manager/building owner starts allowing many tenants to own dogs, things can get out of control.
Yooo.. let me just say we have a LOT of this here. We have a big Sennenhund that broke his tie out and came at us.. it was totally scary as this dog is at least 50 KG.. I spoke to the farmer and he was like it is not illegal to tie your dog out, although they are trying to create laws to that effect.. as of yet no dice. He suggested I not walk my dogs down this public road and then his dog would have no reason to break his lead...

Like WHAT?! This is a family dog, it belongs inside to sleep and outside if it can manage without breaking through a fence! I have also had dogs running at me full speed from a nature protection area that clearly says the dogs need to be leashed and like.. my dogs are but the owners are like well I live here it is only for outsiders and also it is not a big deal because not everyday is someone here!! :msnsa rcastic:


These are not auslanders, not that it manners, but i still feel like a guest in this country and I could never imagine letting my dogs have a free for all in clearly leashed areas.. not that they are off leash anyway but you get it.

Yes, the apartment is not the problem, it is the access to outside. This is unobstructed. The garage is a different story and i have always taken them above ground to walk below ground due to the double door situation. I have just been in so many instances here where dogs have jumped off their property off high set decks to "meet" me and my dogs, regardless of which one I am with.

It seems to me that dogs should be kept inside and not left to their own devices outside... what good can come of that? Even when you have a house you have some places by Swiss law where you cannot have a fence tall enough to stop even a medium size dog from scaling it if it chose to..

Most people here have dogs, it is stipulated in the contract that we can have them. I have spoken with my neighbor and explained we are looking for a house and do not plan to be here. The situation was amicable for a long time, until it wasn't. So moving into a house is in the cards for us, but this has to be done carefully. So we work on it..

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Oh my....I feel very sorry for the situation you are in, it does sound quite similar to what we went through with our dog, a now four year old beauceron, while not as big as your Great Dane, still plenty of pound for pound puppy!

He became extremely reactive to other dogs and people at around 12-18 months of age. Like you, we tried harnesses so we would have multiple points of connection, we did private lessons, we tried to socialize as much as possible and none of it made much difference. He's now largely through his teenage years and is much better - for us the thing that made the biggest difference was taking him to group, not solo, dog classes. We used Canidos in Versoix, where the trainer Laurence is super with big and troublesome dogs in particular, she appears to be the trainer of last resort for most of canton Geneve and Vaud. From when we started her group classes to today, its been two years, and we still go minimum 3-4 times a month to one of her group obedience classes.

We took him early enough in this process to see a dog behavioral psychologist, Dr Joël Dehasse, who confirmed for us that our boy was perfectly normal, displaying perfectly normal herding dog tendencies to guard, protect etc. This was reassuring but didn't help - he offered drugs if we wanted to bring his intensity level down, but we felt at the time that this was not a solution for us.

If there are group lessons available from your trainer I would discuss with them if they think it an appropriate course of action, I know that for us, they probably saved our dogs life, or certainly his life with us. It was also clear from having discussed with many other beauceron owners that our breed in particular takes a long time to mature and goes through MANY fear phases - its possible that its the same for the great dane?

Hope you can find a solution that works.
Hi and thank you! You are right on the nose with the many fear periods.. the guarding nature of a Dane can get amplified and I think this is the case with my girl. She is in and out of hormones and fear phases. My trainer has did many one on one sessions as a litmus test to see what I can manage with such a big dog. We also did group sessions. I will enroll her again in group courses.. her problem is that she needs to see other dogs in group settings and have her behavior modified accordingly but consistently. I 100% agree with you there.

Seeing dogs on the street are a tease, because they do not cooperate as I cannot ask the owner for them to stay put and let my dog exhaust her excessive guarding nature on them when it is not a trusted and structured environment. Even while I am controlling my dog, the most I can muster is please don't run away, but stand a few minutes so she can understand the situation and then go. I don't begrudge them if they are not comfy and need to go away..

She has barrier frustration, she literally needs desensitisation training over and over again until she doesn't give a shit if pigs fly by her nose. She is not confident and always worried, and my trainer told me when dogs are stressed they do what they know best... Danes guard.. hunting dogs hunt.. so I think we've reached the baseline, having passed the Junghundkurs... now we need the building blocks on top of that.

Thank you so much for your insight. I also believe this will calm down with more socialization and mental maturity on her behalf.. I am super happy to hear the progress you have made with your dog.. the Beauceron is also a large to giant breed and I think it just takes time for them to not be puppies anymore despite looking to us like adult dogs..

And my trainer, with the advice of a behavorist and Dane expert, told me she did not need medicine. Of course I could give it to take the edge off, but she doesn't need it.. I have to try harder to be a better partner to my dog... I don't want to medicate away my faults as a trainer, because I am sure I am not doing all correctly. She doesn't need to bend to be compliant to me, I need to understand and accept her needs as they are... and make it all the more enticing to follow me away from stimuli.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 19.10.2019 at 14:40. Reason: merging consecutive replies
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  #22  
Old 16.10.2019, 22:55
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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Not giving a beating, just saying it is a very large animal, with another one to have in a small apartment and maybe worth looking to move out to the sticks into a house where the dog can go out and lose a bit of excess energy, which may go partway to solving the problem

I grew up with 2 great danes and owned newfs until I had to put them down at the ripe old age of 12. Danes (and many large breeeds) just don't require or desire that much exercise. My newfs watched our classroom chickens run all over the yard and couldn't be arsed to get up.

I would agree with you if the op was talking about a different breed (or a bulldog). Sad thing al around.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:08
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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I grew up with 2 great danes and owned newfs until I had to put them down at the ripe old age of 12. Danes (and many large breeeds) just don't require or desire that much exercise. My newfs watched our classroom chickens run all over the yard and couldn't be arsed to get up.

I would agree with you if the op was talking about a different breed (or a bulldog). Sad thing al around.
As some groaners in this thread cannot believe my Dane does not require the exercise of say, a collie or sporting breed, I feel defeated.

You know, with the backbiting and silent groans in this place I am ready to ask the mods to put my thread to rest. This is the only outlet Anglophone people have to speak in Switzerland.. or at least that I have found, and it is so full to the brim with drive-by commenters who have no concern for my situation and dissenters that it is not even worth it.

I have asked for honest advice and despite what I have posted I am being told I don't have adequate places to keep my dogs DESPITE it being said by my neighbors, cantons, and vet authorities that what I have is enough?! It is unbelievable.

I am sorry I wrote and sorry I sought advice. Thank your for those of you who have reached out and have been helpful.

Thanks
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  #24  
Old 16.10.2019, 23:14
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

May I offer some insight into what may have sparked the snarky tone? Your posts are very, VERY long. That comes across as a bit high maintenance and I will admit - I stopped reading about 2/3 into the first one and couldn't deal with subsequent ones. Too. Many. Words.

That is not an attack and I have been guilty of the long, get it all off my chest post too. You feel better after, at least until the backlash. You have gotten some friendly feedback too, try to focus on that if you can.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:15
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

Today Only, just leave my thread if you don't like what I have to say. If it is a public forum then you have other things to concern yourself with than my case as you already deem my living conditions to be sub par. I heard you, it is done, please go from my thread.

Thanks RSC
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:22
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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May I offer some insight into what may have sparked the snarky tone? Your posts are very, VERY long. That comes across as a bit high maintenance and I will admit - I stopped reading about 2/3 into the first one and couldn't deal with subsequent ones. Too. Many. Words.

That is not an attack and I have been guilty of the long, get it all off my chest post too. You feel better after, at least until the backlash. You have gotten some friendly feedback too, try to focus on that if you can.
Yes and that is ok. I didnt know it was high maintenance. I wasn't asking for the world.... if someone said TL;DR ok.. I get it. No one is obligated to respond or help me. I reached out because I was at my wit's end.. that is all.. and I don't feel you are attacking me and I WILL try to focus on the good comments. I am open to suggestions that are reasonable.. if you live in CH you know changing your apartment or going to home ownership isn't something you can do overnight. If someone is going to consider my living space inadequate I cannot just up and change that and that is what I responded to.

If this thread is too much mods can remove it and I will not post such a long dissertation here anymore..I am sorry if it was over the top

RSC
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:30
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

@RedSoloCup,

I'd like to encourage you not to give up in your search for help, and the English Forum can be a great source.

We're all limited by being able to read the text only, and without the full context of seeing and hearing the person who wrote, and as such we can't ever really know whether we've interpreted another poster's text the way they meant it, emotionally.

Some people post in a way that really annoys other people, while yet others find those very same posts to be reasonable and a useful contribution to an all-round discussion. When I say that, I'm not referring to your thread, here, in particular, but to fora and posters the world over.

My hope for you (and for all those who seek help on fora) is that you can manage to simply skip over the posts that you don't find helpful. Pass them over. If any particular user really, really bothers you, you can block them, so you never have to see what they write. Or else you can just gloss over their posts and move on to those of others which you prefer. Instead, focus on those posts from people who have offered you empathy in a way that comforts you, or whose advice or opinions seem to you to potentially offer some solution.

In addtion, I've found that the writing of any one user - like the people who write those posts - are not homogenous, and so one post which I find odd or hurtful in one thread might come from a user whose contributions in a later part of that thread, or in another, I really appreciate. Certainly some posts of mine are appreciated, others are criticized, and sometimes I'm surprised at how they have been understood or felt. That's just life on a forum.

So please, if possible, don't be sorry you sought advice. You've already received some, and you are likely to get some more, ideally from meloncollie, when she has time, but also from others who may see this thread only in some weeks from now.

I wish you courage, and some rest (it looks to me like you really need some rest), and good solutions, bit by bit. Good luck!
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:35
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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@RedSoloCup,

I'd like to encourage you not to give up in your search for help, and the English Forum can be a great source.

We're all limited by being able to read the text only, and without the full context of seeing and hearing the person who wrote, and as such we can't ever really know whether we've interpreted another poster's text the way they meant it, emotionally.

Some people post in a way that really annoys other people, while yet others find those very same posts to be reasonable and a useful contribution to an all-round discussion. When I say that, I'm not referring to your thread, here, in particular, but to fora and posters the world over.

My hope for you (and for all those who seek help on fora) is that you can manage to simply skip over the posts that you don't find helpful. Pass them over. If any particular user really, really bothers you, you can block them, so you never have to see what they write. Or else you can just gloss over their posts and move on to those of others which you prefer. Instead, focus on those posts from people who have offered you empathy in a way that comforts you, or whose advice or opinions seem to you to potentially offer some solution.

In addtion, I've found that the writing of any one user - like the people who write those posts - are not homogenous, and so one post which I find odd or hurtful in one thread might come from a user whose contributions in a later part of that thread, or in another, I really appreciate. Certainly some posts of mine are appreciated, others are criticized, and sometimes I'm surprised at how they have been understood or felt. That's just life on a forum.

So please, if possible, don't be sorry you sought advice. You've already received some, and you are likely to get some more, ideally from meloncollie, when she has time, but also from others who may see this thread only in some weeks from now.

I wish you courage, and some rest, and good solutions, bit by bit. Good luck!
I just don't have much hope or courage anymore.. I am sorry I wrote my post to the Pet Corner. That is all.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:37
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

Mods you can close further replies to my post. I am sorry I asked for help here. You can also delete my account when needed. Thank you.
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  #30  
Old 16.10.2019, 23:41
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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I just don't have much hope or courage anymore.. I am sorry I wrote my post to the Pet Corner. That is all.
You started by writing that you are at the end of your rope. I hear you on that. Later, you wrote that you are in tears.

Therefore, and I'm trying to say this as softly and gently as I can: it seems to me that you need some sleep. Perhaps a warm cuppa, and a cuddle-blanket, a last quiet moment for tonight, with each of your dogs, and then, please, try to rest.

I'm really sorry that you're going through so much. There are many here who have empathy for the mere fact that you are in a crisis (no matter how it came about) and there are others here who have tried, and who may well try again tomorrow or during the next weeks, to offer you practical advice.

We can't see your home, your husband, your advisors, your dogs, your heart, but never fear, there's many a thread that at first seems to go nowhere, and further down the line someone writes something that can actually be found by the OP to be useful.

For now, perhaps it's best to switch off and try to sleep.
I wish you rest.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:43
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

Also: there's still meloncollie's advice to come. And she really, really knows about DOGS.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:46
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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You started by writing that you are at the end of your rope. I hear you on that. Later, you wrote that you are in tears.

Therefore, and I'm trying to say this as softly and gently as I can: it seems to me that you need some sleep. Perhaps a warm cuppa, and a cuddle-blanket, a last quiet moment for tonight, with each of your dogs, and then, please, try to rest.

I'm really sorry that you're going through so much. There are many here who have empathy for the mere fact that you are in a crisis (no matter how it came about) and there are others here who have tried, and who may well try again tomorrow or during the next weeks, to offer you practical advice.

We can't see your home, your husband, your advisors, your dogs, your heart, but never fear, there's many a thread that at first seems to go nowhere, and further down the line someone writes something that can actually be found by the OP to be useful.

For now, perhaps it's best to switch off and try to sleep.
I wish you rest.
I just do not want this thread to continue. thank you for the concern. I do not know who a mod here is or isn't. The person who should have switched off and went to sleep or to another thread did not. That is also ok, but I don't feel safe to post here. I will go back to my piss pot home and my shitty living conditions for my dogs and I will sit there. It is voll ok.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:47
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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Also: there's still meloncollie's advice to come. And she really, really knows about DOGS.
That was why I posted in the first place, but now I just want my account deleted and my thread closed.. to whomever is moding.. it is ok
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  #34  
Old 16.10.2019, 23:48
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

Some things send you over the edge, after youve had enough, please just close my thread and delete my account.
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Old 16.10.2019, 23:57
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

I have sent you a PM (Private Message).
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  #36  
Old 16.10.2019, 23:58
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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I have sent you a PM (Private Message).
Thank you. Please just cancel my activities here. Thank you

RSC
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  #37  
Old 17.10.2019, 00:15
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

Please delete my thread and account mods.
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  #38  
Old 17.10.2019, 00:35
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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Sorry, but that post was really out of order!
I agree. Is mercury in retrograde again?

RCS - man, you sound really desperate, not sure what else is going on but you clearly need a rest and moving is super stressful. I have a 7 month old kitten who occasionally drives me up the wall and I feel so silly because I can't handle this adorable floof. But then he will do something heartwarming like following me around the apartment making little noises as if he was asking questions and all is well. And the next day I get home to discover he has meticulously chewed all the little stones off a pair of diamanté heels. Right now he is trying to climb into a flower pot.

Goodness knows how I would feel if he was a 70 kg dog!

Best you can do is get a good night's sleep and things usually look brighter in the morning.

Btw, I have worked with an animal communicator and was surprised at the good results - anyone who wants to call it mumbo jumbo is welcome to, I don't smoke and rarely drink so I have to fritter away my money on SOMETHING, right? The one I use speaks zero English though, just German and Animal - not sure if you speak German. She also advises on optimum nutrition, is a trained veterinary nurse and has a whole menagerie of dogs and cats herself.

I hope you feel a bit calmer now and wake up wondering how you got into such a state rather than still feeling the same. It really must seem momentous right now but this too shall pass. And now I must go, I can hear the floof chewing on something - strewth!
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  #39  
Old 17.10.2019, 00:55
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

RedSoloCup, it will be ok, really it will.
It doesn’t matter what people think, it matters what you think.
Stay a while, you might like the company
EF is actually very nice
They’re a tough bunch of straight talkers and very kind as well
Nothing here, and no one’s opinion is of any importance

Hope you feel better
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Old 17.10.2019, 07:55
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Re: At the end of my rope.. husband, two dogs..

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I didn't come here to get bullied by some bitter shit talker,

Unfortunately, this forum has it's fair share of sh1t talkers (and I'm not excluding myself here).

But this is hardly bullying, just throw away comments, should be water off a duck's back, just ignore it. It's life on the internet.

Nearly every thread of any merit attracts a g0bsh1te. Antagonists are everywhere!



You have had lots of good advice, and when MellonCollie logs on, you'll no doubt be getting some invaluable advice.
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