English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Pet corner (https://www.englishforum.ch/pet-corner/)
-   -   Moving with two dogs - Lugano, Ticino (https://www.englishforum.ch/pet-corner/303408-moving-two-dogs-lugano-ticino.html)

cinoeye 30.03.2021 12:30

Moving with two dogs - Lugano, Ticino
 
Hello all!
We are moving to Lugano with our two dogs.
One is Lhasa Apso and the other Standard English Bull Terrier.
I am trying to find info what is the exact procedure to move with them and register them.
I also know that we need permission for our English Bull Terrier.
I have tried to contact Ticino Veterinary Authorities who replied in Italian and gave us the links without detailed explanation what to do.
https://www4.ti.ch/dss/dsp/uvc/setto...utorizzazione/
So we are still confused.


estratto del casellario giudiziale (ordinazione)-Since I live in Serbia, should I get this document here in Serbia?


I detentori di questi cani devono richiedere l'autorizzazione all'Ufficio del veterinario cantonale prima dell'acquisto.- I already have the dog and live outside of Switzerland, so it was not possible to contact authorities before the purchase.


https://www4.ti.ch/fileadmin/DSS/DSP...hiesta_aut.pdf Can I start this process before the dog arrives in Lugano, or need to wait to get there?


Since my other dog does not requires permit, what will be the procedure for him? Do we need to register him before we get there or we can arrive and than register him with Amicus?
Please help!

Thank you!

st2lemans 30.03.2021 13:00

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
One problem I see is that you risk being denied permission to keep the dog.

I suggest contacting a local lawyer, one I can recommend is https://www.boehmlegal.ch/firm-and-activities.php as he speaks fluent English (as well as the various Swiss languages).

Tom

meloncollie 30.03.2021 13:39

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Since I don’t have any Italian, nor do I live in TI, I’m relying on the Tier Im Recht foundation’s summary of TI dog law, which is published in German. So with that caveat:

https://www.tierimrecht.org/de/recht/hunderecht/tessin/

Key points, valid for all dogs:

You are required to ensure that your dogs are appropriately trained and socialized so that they pose no threat to people or other animals.

You are required to carry liability insurance cover of 3 million. Anyone helping with your dogs must also be covered under your policy.

Dogs older than 3 months must be registered. (My note: with the Commune, as well as via the AMICUS federal database).

In public areas ,where the presence of people or other animals cannot be excluded, dogs should be kept on lead, and if required wear a muzzle. (My note: a muzzle requirement would come from the Veterinäramt, usually after an incident.)

Roaming dogs and cats, or other pet animals who appear to have gone feral, that are found more than 300 meters from a residential area, may be seized or killed by the hunting police.

You must pay a yearly dog tax.

---

So for your Lhasa, you simply need to do what any dog owner anywhere must: Register with the commune, and see a vet to get the ball rolling with the AMICUS registration. This needs to be done within 10 days of arrival in Switzerland.

You might contact EF members Snoopy and Mrs Doolittle, who have recently moved to Tessin with their dog, a breed not subject to BSL. They are experienced and knowlegeable dog owners, so likely au fait with TI regs for non-listed dogs

---

Back to the TIR summary, Measures relating to the listed breeds - so this only pertains to your EB:

Listed dogs may only be walked singly. (My note: This means you cannot walk both your dogs together! Have you planned for how you will structure your day due to this?)

You are required to obtain a permit in order to keep your dog.

The permit requirement is for all listed dogs that are resident in the canton for more than 30 days, including holiday and second home owners.

The permit must be obtained before taking ownership of the dog. (In your case, before you move into the canton.) My note: This answers one of your questions, you MUST apply before moving into the canton!)

To apply for the permit you will need:

An extract from the criminal register.

(Here the TIR summary points to the TI dog law, articles 9-14. I’ve included the points below, run through DeepL, as again, I do not know Italian:
https://www3.ti.ch/CAN/RLeggi/public...mero/8.3.1.2.1

You will have to show your certificate demonstrating competence in handling your dogs.

(My note: the TI dog law, art. 10 and 14 - which in turn references the federal animal control law, 455.1, article 68, the old SKN federal training requirement and certificate. However this requirement was abolished a few years ago. So you will need to clarify what specific cantonal training classes are required. Write the Veterinarämt for clarification. If you are not a proficient Italian speaker, have someone who is help you.)

The commune will then check the conditions under which you are keeping your dogs. My note: I don’t know how TI does this - in other cantons it’s a visit from either a Veterinäramt official or the police. Usually the visit is a friendly discussion of both animal welfare and safety.

Based on that report, the canton issues the permit to keep a listed dog.

Once the certificate has been issued, you are required to attend the compulsory course between ages 9-13 months and take the appitude test, then again between the ages of 2 and 3 years. (Again, contact your commune or Veterinaramt for clarification as to which course, and what the test entails.)

If you fail to obtain a certificate from the course/test, you are required to take a second course within 6 months.

My Note: How old is your EB? In other cantons with training requriements linked to age, when one moves into the canton with an older dog one is told what courses to take and when. Again, get in touch with the Veterinäramt for clarification if your dog is older.



——

More on the test for listed dogs, from
https://www4.ti.ch/fileadmin/DSS/DSP...3-27.04.10.pdf

Which defines the skills tested, and the conditions of the training course:

Again, run through DeepL:

Article 4 Course content shall include:
(a) attention: the keeper must be able to get the dog's attention;
b) bite inhibition and play: the dog must have acquired bite inhibition and
control itself in play;
(c) Leash Conduct: The keeper shall be able to walk with the dog on the leash without being pulled by the dog.
leash without being pulled by the dog;
d) off-leash conduct: the dog must follow the keeper by the foot even if not
on the leash;

Certificate of proficiency
e) recall of the dog: the keeper shall be able to recall the dog successfully in any situation;
(f) basic commands: "sit"; "down": the dog shall know the basic positions and execute them on the order of the keeper;
(g) controlled separation: the dog shall maintain the position requested by the keeper;
(h) indifference to strangers: the dog must not have aggressive reactions and the keeper must be able to maintain control of the dog if the dog encounters strangers on a bicycle or on foot;
(i) approach with other dogs: the dog shall not have aggressive reactions and the keeper shall be able to maintain control of the dog if the dog encounters other dogs;
(j) handling the dog: the keeper shall be able to handle the dog and muzzle the dog;
(k) microchip reading: the dog shall easily allow the microchip to be read.
Art. 5 1During the course must be used the method of gentle education. It is not allowed under any circumstances the use of coercive methods or tools.
2Each instructor can work with a maximum of 5 dogs.
ORGANIZATION OF THE COURSE
Art. 6 The enrollment takes place directly at the dog club organizer. The course can also be attended by dogs that are not subject to the authorization obligation according to art. 14 Dog Law.
Art. 7 1 Upon completion of the course, the dog-owning society must issue an attendance certificate to the dog owner indicating in particular
a) the personal details of the keeper;
b) the microchip number of the dog;
(c) the course location;
(d) the name of the instructor responsible for the dog; and (e) the period of course attendance.
2The certificate of attendance shall be issued in cases where the dog-owner pair has attended the entire course.
3The certificate may also be issued in cases where for justified reasons the dog-owner pair has attended only 90% of the lessons of the entire course.
4The company organizing the course must keep a register of participants for at least 5 years.
Art. 8 The price of the course is established by the dog society. FINAL PROVISIONS
Art. 9 These directives are published in the Official Bulletin of laws and executive acts and come into force immediately.


My note: So it looks like a standard Wesenstest, similar to those used in other cantons. You and your EB will need to master these skills.


Now - how all this works in practice I cannot say, as I do not live in TI. You need to get in touch with someone who does. If you do not know someone with a listed dog in TI, perhaps get in touch with the English Bulldog Club Switzerland and ask if they can connect you to someone in TI who might be able to help you.

http://www.bulldog.ch

---

One big question leaps out at me: Do you anticipate any difficulty meeting the requirements with your EB? And if so, what is your Plan B if you cannot get permission to keep him in TI?

This should be addressed before you agree to the move to Tessin. Could you live in another canton?

As we have seen over and over and over again in Swiss dog law - and much of other Swiss law - there can be differences in what a law says, and how it tends to be interpreted by local authorities, and how it is put into force.

You really need to speak to a Ticino owner of a BSL dog for info as to what the everyday reality in the canton is.

Wishing you and your pups all the very best!

----

And finally - Could I ask an Italian speaker - preferably an Italian speaking dog owner familair with dog law ;) - to go through these links and correct my interpretation of the DeepL translation, and to add anything I have missed?


ETA:

It would be helpful if your title indicated you need info on moving to Tessin with a listed dog, so that any EFers who have listed dogs in TI would be more likely to see your thread. Perhaps consider contacting a moderator to ask if that info could be added to your thread title.

All the best with your move.

cinoeye 30.03.2021 17:03

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
meloncollie, is there a way to rename title?
Regarding the plan B(if I do not get authorization)-I do not know.
I would never give him away.
He is gentle, cuddly, not agressive at all, he is spirited dog and he is full of life!
Hi is friendly with dogs and people...my only concern is obedience test
https://m4.ti.ch/dss/dsp/uvc/settori...est-cantonali/
We will probably hire dog trainer in order to prepare him for this test.
He is 9 moths old and not listening all the way when outside, but maybe that will change as he ages.
Not sure if this test are ment to make you fail or help you?
If you fail(obedience) , do they give you second chance? Do they offer classes?

cinoeye 30.03.2021 17:04

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Btw thank you all for your reply.

Sean Connery 30.03.2021 18:13

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
having had a Rottweiler in Ticino in a previous life, I can tell you there was a visit from the police for the dangerous breed and I was advised to install a robust gate on our property, which I did. The police did not come back (or certainly did not contact me and arrange a visit but it would be possible to come and see the gate without doing so).

you need insurance but this is not expensive.

as the dog is still young, you might have to take some lessons with it - I would do this as it will demonstrate that you are a responsible owner.

from what I saw, there was no pass/fail. The owner has to show responsibility as much as the dog.

in the real world, nobody batted an eyelid when I was out with the dog.

this is vague recollection from around 2011/2012 so the situation might have developed since then.

meloncollie 30.03.2021 19:38

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinoeye (Post 3291219)
is there a way to rename title?

Just contact a moderator - hit the ! triangle at the right. A mod can change the title for you.


Quote:

Originally Posted by cinoeye (Post 3291219)
Regarding the plan B(if I do not get authorization)-I do not know.
I would never give him away.

Good on ya! Our dogs are for life, we commit to them come what may.

While a Plan B brewing in the back of your mind would be prudent, I wouldn't stress yet. First contact a trainer as discussed below to get an idea of how difficult/easy the test might be for your boy.

If the TI test is anything like some I have seen - remember, I do not have any personal experience of the TI test - keep in mind that you are being tested along with your dog. So think about how you would handle any mistakes your pup might make. Emphasis on how your response would enhance safety.

Do you speak Italian?


Quote:

Originally Posted by cinoeye (Post 3291219)
He is gentle, cuddly, not agressive at all, he is spirited dog and he is full of life!
Hi is friendly with dogs and people...my only concern is obedience test
https://m4.ti.ch/dss/dsp/uvc/settori...est-cantonali/
We will probably hire dog trainer in order to prepare him for this test.
He is 9 moths old and not listening all the way when outside, but maybe that will change as he ages.
Not sure if this test are ment to make you fail or help you?
If you fail(obedience) , do they give you second chance? Do they offer classes?

He sounds lovely - and you sound like a very caring owner.

Bumbling around the TI website - again with the caveat that i do not know any Italian - I found this:

https://www4.ti.ch/dss/dsp/uvc/setto...i-obbligatori/

This is a list of trainers who are qualified to do the obligatory courses. I see there are a couple in Lugano. Perhaps you could browse their websites, see who seems like a good resource for you, then contact one of those trainers and ask what to expect, how to prepare your dog for the move and permit process. Explain that your dog is a 9 month old teenager - I would guess that any dog trainer worth his or her salt understands the nuttiness of adolescent dogs, and knows how to handle their special kind o' crazy . Once you are working with a trainer, he or she should be able to guide you through the process.

Here is more on the test process:
https://www4.ti.ch/dss/dsp/uvc/setto...est-cantonali/

And here is the protocol for the test:
https://www4.ti.ch/fileadmin/DSS/DSP..._cani_2012.pdf

I can’t find anything that talks about scoring the test. Going on my experience of other tests in other places, there is sometimes a set of points ascribed to each exercise, with a minimum number of points to pass. So your dog does not have to be perfect, just good. But I must stress - I do not know anything about the Tessin test or process! Key will be to find someone who has been through it, and to start working with an experienced trainer.

I wonder if a Tessin trainer would be willing to do some kind of video lesson with you prior to your move? Something to ask about, as it would be nice to get a head start in training, and you want to essentially ‘train to the test’.

But if my zero Italian reliance on DeepL is close to correct, if you do not pass the test the first time you need to enroll in another class within six months.

Again, discuss all this with a trainer - he or she is best placed to answer your questions.

---

One last thing - have you found housing yet? With a listed breed, I'd recommend that you choose a free standing house with private garden rather than a flat. A free standing house makes your life easier, safer - and lessens the chance of neighbor run-ins.

---

Sean Connery, do you have any additional pointers for Cinoeye? First hand experience is invaluable, and far more useful than the than dry info I found on t'interwebs

----.

ETA:

While we have been focusing on the test, do remember that is only one factor. You will also be requried to take the obligatory classes. So you will have a fair amount of time not only to work on your basic training, but also to learn about Swiss expectations, about your responsibilities as an owner of a listed breed, and about how the whole process works. Look to your trainer as your best resource in this!

I am a firm believer in taking various training classes throughout a dog's life. Training is learning how to help your dog to become a good canine citizen, it's a way to bond together, a way to have fun together. A good class is so much more than sit, down, stay! A good training class sets you and your dog up for success.

I do not have a listed breed, but I have had a lot of dogs with behavioral issues - and my current challenge is a dog who is, well, broken beyond belief. So I have to be extra careful in a similar way to owners of listed breeds. I have found that continually taking training classes goes a long way creating good will with my neighbors, with the Powers That Be.

Something to consider.

---

Again, wishing you and your pups all the best.

blacky 30.03.2021 19:55

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
I can't give any legal advice since I don't even live in CH yet nor I have dog.

However, from pure training perspective, I'd recommend not waiting for official answers and start training your puppy now. Look into clicker training, that's fast and efficient method, and it can only help you both when you encounter official trainer.

My experience is with training cats, I didn't do much with them yet, but hey if THEY react to it, dog should be easy peasy ;) (I tried just a several times, because I'm lazy, but one day I'll teach them how to play fetch, I swear :rofl:)

Check youtube for good videos, I found a ton about dogs when I was looking for cat training ones, but core is the same anyway. Except dogs will be more eager to do stuff and not aloof like cats and just start ignoring you :rofl:

Also, you don't need a clicker per se, you just need a two sounds, one for one dog, and another for another dog, so you can bond and train them together even.
And yes, it will be a great bonding experience even if the official progress is slow.

So with clicker training you should definitely be able to get sit, stay and similar stuff fast. And that's a good foundation for the rest you'll have to do together judging by the requirements posted here.

Good luck and have fun :)

cinoeye 01.04.2021 13:17

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
You guys are amazing! Thank you so much!
You have decreased my anxiety.
Since this is all new to me- I over retracted.
I was under impression that Swiss state and Canton are after my dog basically and the test is done ones and if the dog failed, they would take my dog.
I did not know there is a time to prepare the dog and also train and get ready for the test.

kri 01.04.2021 13:57

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinoeye (Post 3291872)
You guys are amazing! Thank you so much!
You have decreased my anxiety.
Since this is all new to me- I over retracted.
I was under impression that Swiss state and Canton are after my dog basically and the test is done ones and if the dog failed, they would take my dog.
I did not know there is a time to prepare the dog and also train and get ready for the test.

You did right to react and look for all the info - better that way than showing up and facing all this! Well done!

Island Monkey 01.04.2021 14:17

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Any chance either you or your partner have EU citizenship? Then living in Italy could be an option.

Verbier 01.04.2021 14:23

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
I did not read all of the replies line-by-line but I did not see a mention of a Passport and ID chips for the dogs. Obviously Serbia is not in the EU but do you have Passports for the dogs with their chip numbers etc. ? The Swiss government agencies love documents. The more official you can be, the easier it will be, at least for the small one.

Good luck in any event.

cinoeye 01.04.2021 15:02

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
We have Serbian and the USA passports. Both looked at 3rd countries by the Switzerland. Not sure how people are going to look at us since lot of people do not like Americans or the Serbs hahaha!

Both dogs are chipped(Lhasa in the USA) and Bull in Serbia. It is mandatory in Serbia and by law after all booster shots- rabies vaccine must be administered and chip is implanted and passport is issued at the same time.
In addition to that for some stupid reason Serbia is listed as high rabid risk country(all surrounding states countries are not), so we need to do some additional test before entering the EU.

Verbier 01.04.2021 15:10

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cinoeye (Post 3291914)
We have Serbian and the USA passports. Both looked at 3rd countries by the Switzerland. Not sure how people are going to look at us since lot of people do not like Americans or the Serbs hahaha!

Both dogs are chipped(Lhasa in the USA) and Bull in Serbia. It is mandatory in Serbia and by law after all booster shots- rabies vaccine must be administered and chip is implanted and passport is issued at the same time.
In addition to that for some stupid reason Serbia is listed as high rabid risk country(all surrounding states countries are not), so we need to do some additional test before entering the EU.

Hello again. It was more the dogs having their passports rather than you and your partner. :D

In the USA their are two types of chips. One is readable only in the USA and the other one is compatible with the European scanners. Since you will be doing other check-ups/shots for the dogs, it would be worth scanning them at the vet's to see if both are working and the USA one is the model that can be read. If there are issues, my guess is that it would be a lot less expensive to have new chip(s) put in while you are still in Serbia rather than getting hit with the Swiss prices. As well you will have all the details up to date in their passports before arriving.

cinoeye 01.04.2021 15:15

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
haha thank you Verbier, good point there.
I was also answering Island Monkey who asked about my wife's and mine passports;)

MusicChick 01.04.2021 19:41

Re: Moving with two dogs - Lugano, Ticino
 
Title changed.

DL21 01.04.2021 20:27

Re: Moving with two dogs - Lugano, Ticino
 
It would be highly unlikely anyone would notice and reply if you said ‘tessin’ in the title.....

You’d be mistaken for a schone panorama.....

st2lemans 01.04.2021 22:59

Re: Moving with two dogs - Lugano, Ticino
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DL21 (Post 3292004)
It would be highly unlikely anyone would notice and reply if you said ‘tessin’ in the title.....

Correct is "Tësin". https://www.wikiwand.com/pms/Tesin

Tom

meloncollie 01.04.2021 23:32

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbier (Post 3291901)
I did not read all of the replies line-by-line but I did not see a mention of a Passport and ID chips for the dogs. .

Good point - we’ve put the cart before the horse by discussing Ticino's BSL and permits for listed dogs before talking about general import regs for all dogs.

Cinoeye, in Switzerland dogs (which means their owners) are regulated at three levels - federal, cantonal, and commune.

Laws at the federal level tend to center on animal welfare concerns, as well as import and export. Laws at the cantonal and commune levels tend to center around animal control.

We dog owners need to know how the various laws at all three levels impact our four footed friends.

Here is the BLV (that’s the federal office that regulates import and export of pet animals, among other things) page on what is required to bring dogs in to Switzerland. Conveniently, the BLV has published much of it’s info in English as well as national languages:
https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home...frettchen.html

And to make it even simpler to learn what you have to do at the federal level to import both your dogs, here is the BLV’s interactive tool:
https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home...frettchen.html

FYI - When answering the ‘I come from’ question, you should enter the country where you and your dogs are currently resident.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to browse these pages, then pop back to this thread with any specific questions on federal import regulations you might have.



So - you will have lots to do to make this move happen. Wishing you, and your four footed friends, all the best.

eng_ch 02.04.2021 10:46

Re: Moving with two dogs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Island Monkey (Post 3291899)
Any chance either you or your partner have EU citizenship? Then living in Italy could be an option.

No need for Italy; Graubünden (Grigione) has no BSL and runs all the way down to Roveredo, which should be commutable to Lugano. If EU, no problem living in a different canton. It's much more difficult if you're non-EU (you need permission from both cantons I suspect), but if it's a corporate move, maybe try and get them on board with that for the permit.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:09.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0