Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Pet corner  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23.01.2023, 22:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Extreme dog breeding

the disgusting world of

on BBC 1 Panorama, right now.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank JackieH for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at JackieH for this post:
  #2  
Old 24.01.2023, 07:45
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 23,265
Groaned at 458 Times in 354 Posts
Thanked 18,529 Times in 10,268 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Might help to provide a link so people know what you're talking about.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64346415
Reply With Quote
The following 10 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 24.01.2023, 10:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: na
Posts: 11,811
Groaned at 38 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 28,449 Times in 8,718 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Switzerland has fairly decent laws forbidding 'Qualzucht', literal translation would be abusive breeding, which is what this is, make no mistake.

See here, from the BLV:
https://www.blv.admin.ch/blv/en/home.../zuechten.html

Not only is abusive breeding, where animals are bred for deformations that impact the ability to lead a normal life, but Switzerland goes a step further and bans the exhibition of these animals. That forces the breed clubs to take steps. (Or should, see below.)

From Vier Pföten Schweiz:
https://www.vier-pfoten.ch/kampagnen...hen-stoerungen

And a good article from Tierwelt:
https://www.tierwelt.ch/artikel/haus...-hunden-409178

And another from Hund Magazin:
http://hundemagazin.ch/qualzucht-ras...el-gezuechtet/


And a longer discussion on abusive breeding in cats,, from Tier Im Recht, written before the new Qualzucht law, here. I bring this up because this discussion highlights the issues and challenges around this kind of legislation:
https://www.tierimrecht.org/document...zucht_full.pdf

---

We also have an huge education problem.

One of the threads I remember here on EF was someone looking for a kangaroo cat - his first response when told that these are banned because breeding for shortened forelegs is Qualzucht was that 'it's a natural mutation'. This was a person who genuinely did not understand how the cat badly would be impacted by the deformity, who had only heard the buzzwords that the 'Dark Side' uses to disguise what they do.

Fortunately the poster saw the light, thanks to many posters here explaining the issues. - one of the times the EF community truly made my heart happy. But that poster is far from alone - many, many people do not understand what abusive breeding is, and why it is a problem.

---

But despite the above, we still have a problem. See this article, 'Qualzucht ist Illegal - doch weit weit verbreitet':
https://www.presseportal-schweiz.ch/...eit-verbreitet

This article pretty much sums up the problem with much of Swiss animal welfare legislation: lack of enforcement resources. Add in cavalier attitudes, and animals continue to suffer.

An issue that has me nashing my teeth whenever we (the general, cultural 'we') discuss animal welfare is that people often point to the law, pat themselves on the back, and then assume 'mission accomplished!'. Unfortunately laws are often ignored, with no consequences.

Don't get me wrong - at least we have laws on the books, we are ahead of the curve in that respect. If only we took those laws a bit more seriously.


---

My world is rescue, and I have spent decades working and living with dogs who are victims of abusive - or even just bad - breeding. This issues makes my blood boil.

But I want to caution all who care about our four footed friends not to turn this discussion into a breeding = bad rant.

That is not the case, far from it. There are many ethical, responsible breeders concerned about the problem and breeding to eliminate it and educating dog owners. These good folk are allies with the animal welfare communities, we are all working together to bring out beloved pets back to genetic, physical, and temperamental health.

Buying a puppy or kitten from an ethical responsible breeder, then raising the pet right, giving him a forever home filled with love and care, IS animal welfare. This is the end goal we are all working towards.

I used to be more militant about 'adoption first', but I learned along the way that this stance isn't really helpful, especially in Switzerland. Rather, I see the good breeders as our very important and effective allies in the fight against the Dark Side.

I now cringe when I see battle lines being drawn among folks who all want the same thing. We all need to focus on the real enemy, The Dark Side of unregulated breeding, illegal dog smuggling, the Hundemafia... and the ignorance of pet buyers.
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 24.01.2023, 11:00
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: ZH & BS
Posts: 247
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,067 Times in 414 Posts
ShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
Switzerland has fairly decent laws forbidding 'Qualzucht', literal translation would be abusive breeding, which is what this is, make no mistake.
It seems these stringent laws also exist in the UK but these "breeders" are under the radar and exploiting loopholes wherever possible. One of the morons they were investigating had already been convicted and heavily fined but was openly breeding these poor beasts once again. As long as people are willing to pay top prices for these dogs there will always be a supply. The poor woman in the dog-rescue place was at her wits' end. Must be heart-breaking to be a dog lover and have to deal with these suffering, malformed souls.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank ShirleyNot for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 24.01.2023, 11:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: na
Posts: 11,811
Groaned at 38 Times in 34 Posts
Thanked 28,449 Times in 8,718 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

This is a problem in Switzerland too.

Fines are ridiculously low. What's CHF 200 fine, when the price of a puppy is CHF 3000?

As above, laws need teeth - real consequences. Hit 'em where it hurts, the wallet.

That, and education, education, education. As long as naive buyers are standing in line with money at the ready, the evil trade will continue. Laws alone will never fix this - education is the way forward.
Reply With Quote
The following 8 users would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post:
  #6  
Old 24.01.2023, 11:35
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: ZH & BS
Posts: 247
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,067 Times in 414 Posts
ShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post

That, and education, education, education. As long as naive buyers are standing in line with money at the ready, the evil trade will continue. Laws alone will never fix this - education is the way forward.
Those naive buyers are also dangerously unaware of the type of dog they are taking on, too. The XL Bully (Cane Corso mix, I think) is enormous and extremely strong. No doubt an absolute peach when in the right hands of a trained dog handler but the clowns that take them on have no idea how to socialise and train them. One CCTV shot showed an owner, who must have been max 9st wet-through, being dragged by the dog to lunge at a kid. His reaction to punch the poor dog repeatedly in the side of the head.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank ShirleyNot for this useful post:
  #7  
Old 24.01.2023, 11:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,817
Groaned at 463 Times in 380 Posts
Thanked 18,472 Times in 9,343 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
This is a problem in Switzerland too.

Fines are ridiculously low. What's CHF 200 fine, when the price of a puppy is CHF 3000?

As above, laws need teeth - real consequences. Hit 'em where it hurts, the wallet.

That, and education, education, education. As long as naive buyers are standing in line with money at the ready, the evil trade will continue. Laws alone will never fix this - education is the way forward.
Oh yes, before education I do believe laws can fix to a good degree any deviation of human behaviour. Not completely eliminate, mind.

Fines - make it a few thousands for both people who offer these dogs and for those who buy these uncertified dogs.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

And why would Tom groan at me for this? And Porsch too!

Last edited by JackieH; 24.01.2023 at 12:15.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
Those naive buyers are also dangerously unaware of the type of dog they are taking on, too. The XL Bully (Cane Corso mix, I think) is enormous and extremely strong. No doubt an absolute peach when in the right hands of a trained dog handler but the clowns that take them on have no idea how to socialise and train them. One CCTV shot showed an owner, who must have been max 9st wet-through, being dragged by the dog to lunge at a kid. His reaction to punch the poor dog repeatedly in the side of the head.

If you watch the video- those who are buying these extreme dogs (fetching up to half a million!!!) are NOT naïve. They are thugs and criminals, involved in all sorts of criminal activities, dog fighting, badger baiting and more.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich City
Posts: 6,532
Groaned at 489 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 7,904 Times in 3,616 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
If you watch the video- those who are buying these extreme dogs (fetching up to half a million!!!) are NOT naïve. They are thugs and criminals, involved in all sorts of criminal activities, dog fighting, badger baiting and more.
What video?
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: ZH & BS
Posts: 247
Groaned at 25 Times in 22 Posts
Thanked 1,067 Times in 414 Posts
ShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond reputeShirleyNot has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
And why would Tom groan at me for this?
At a guess, I would say it's the lack of context and link? But I could be wrong.

Quote:
View Post
If you watch the video- those who are buying these extreme dogs (fetching up to half a million!!!) are NOT naïve. They are thugs and criminals, involved in all sorts of criminal activities, dog fighting, badger baiting and more.
I watched the programme last night and there was also quite a bit dedicated to people who own these dogs who can't control them and quite clearly don't know how to, as well as people who use the dogs as you point out.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank ShirleyNot for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Well yes, many here are not from the UK. But I posted quickly last night as the programme began. Everyone from UK will know Panorama on BBC1, and would have found it immediately, if they wanted to watch it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64346415.amp
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:23
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 3,877
Groaned at 379 Times in 269 Posts
Thanked 8,161 Times in 3,486 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:33
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.ZH
Posts: 11,817
Groaned at 463 Times in 380 Posts
Thanked 18,472 Times in 9,343 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
Well yes, many here are not from the UK. But I posted quickly last night as the programme began. Everyone from UK will know Panorama on BBC1, and would have found it immediately, if they wanted to watch it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64346415.amp
Maybe not everyone from the UK is watching Panorama on BBC1.

In fact I would venture to guess that most people don't watch tv shows anymore....maybe I'm wrong though, who knows.

But I so agree that buyers are not all innocent dog lovers, even if they buy those dogs as family pets. In fact the wish to give their kids a pet (they have no idea how to take care of) must be quite prevalent among certain buyers. The little ones love dogs so the little one must get one.
There should be more severe consequences for both ends of this deal, otherwise this commerce will continue flourishing.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24.01.2023, 12:42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 455
Groaned at 64 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 1,285 Times in 716 Posts
Reb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond reputeReb77Br has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
the disgusting world of

on BBC 1 Panorama, right now.
Now on YouTube.

Saw this related report on the BBC last night. Poor lad and his mum.

Jack Lis: Mother of son killed by dog haunted by last image

Quote:
The mother of a 10-year-old boy killed by a dog has said she continues to picture the image of him after he died.

(...)

The dog, called Beast, was an American XL bully which was not a banned breed.

(...)

French and English bulldogs and the new American bully breed are being bred with hugely exaggerated characteristics - such as excessive skin folds or large, muscular frames - and they are selling for tens of thousands of pounds on social media.

Although American bullies such as Beast are not banned, historically they have been cross-bred with pitbulls, which have been banned in the UK since 1991.

(...)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Reb77Br for this useful post:
This user groans at Reb77Br for this post:
  #16  
Old 24.01.2023, 13:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

greenmount- even if people's watching habits have changed, I can voucher that everyone from the UK knows about BBC1 and Panorama, and could easily switch to watch, occasionally.

Thank you for posting the link to the programme. Last night, it was just starting when I posted about it, and it was not yet available for publication.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 24.01.2023, 13:49
roegner's Avatar
Moderately Dutch
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 12,435
Groaned at 401 Times in 338 Posts
Thanked 16,622 Times in 7,588 Posts
roegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond reputeroegner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
greenmount- even if people's watching habits have changed, I can voucher that everyone from the UK knows about BBC1 and Panorama, and could easily switch to watch, occasionally.
Seeing that there are a lot of people not from the UK on EF, that link was appreciated that MF posted.

Maybe time to repost that poll on where everyone comes from??
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank roegner for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 24.01.2023, 13:50
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich City
Posts: 6,532
Groaned at 489 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 7,904 Times in 3,616 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
greenmount- even if people's watching habits have changed, I can voucher that everyone from the UK knows about BBC1 and Panorama, and could easily switch to watch, occasionally.

Thank you for posting the link to the programme. Last night, it was just starting when I posted about it, and it was not yet available for publication.
Nope, haven’t had a TV since around 10 years or more. And it wasn’t Greenmount that posted the link.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 24.01.2023, 13:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,313
Groaned at 577 Times in 406 Posts
Thanked 4,236 Times in 2,244 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Just a pointer for those who might have been interested. Anyone not interested, or not aware about Panorama, could just ignore, and go on their merry way.

The link is now available for you to watch. The choice is entirely yours. It is not 'just' about the UK, but about the USA too.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 24.01.2023, 13:58
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Zurich City
Posts: 6,532
Groaned at 489 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 7,904 Times in 3,616 Posts
ZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond reputeZuriRollt has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Extreme dog breeding

Quote:
View Post
Just a pointer for those who might have been interested. Anyone not interested, or not aware about Panorama, could just ignore, and go on their merry way.

The link is now available for you to watch. The choice is entirely yours. It is not 'just' about the UK, but about the USA too.
You do realise that there are more than a handful of your friends on this public forum? Or that this thread was viewed by 406 EF members already, right? Or perhaps you just put all of them on your “ignore” list, to make it a little bit more ‘exclusive’?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question: Involuntary dog breeding AndreyMas Pet corner 11 24.07.2020 14:44
Dog breeding rules in CH Lanavin Pet corner 58 23.08.2018 14:49
Miniature dog breeding Guest Pet corner 28 19.05.2015 11:53
Breeding chihuahuas loisvt Pet corner 19 13.10.2010 22:25
Dog Breeding in Switzerland Javo Pet corner 10 08.09.2009 19:26


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 19:04.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0