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  #21  
Old 17.08.2009, 14:39
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

I'm sure that argument (which in its logic is perfectly correct) is of great comfort to the parents of the 6 year old boy that got killed by some pitbulls going home from school some years back.




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it's not the dog to blame, it's the owner.
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  #22  
Old 17.08.2009, 14:42
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

Two weeks ago, my husband and my son were biking up on the Stoos. A girl was walking down the lane with her dog. The dog wasn't on the leash. My husband stopped to let them pass. The girl said the dog wouldn't do anything. The dog snarled at my husband, opened his jaws and had his teeth on my husband's leg. Luckily, the dog didn't bite down.

The girl was in shock. My husband kicked the dog. This is about the third time my husband has almost been bit by a dog while mountain bike riding.
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Old 17.08.2009, 14:44
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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1-What about all those families with dogs, Rotties even, who exist in the family home and don't maul the children of the family?


2- Again, as many have pointed out and will continue to point out - it's not the dog to blame, it's the owner. If you cannot control your dog 110% in all situations, you should have it on the leash. It should never be the case that someone else has to ask you.
1- Unfortunately sometimes they does:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-is-named.html

2- This is exactly what I am calling for.


Just to make it clear, am not an anti-doggy maniac. I always enjoyed walks with my two lovely dobermans, but always had safety of others as the priority. I don't think asking anyone to follow the rules and common sense is a crime.
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  #24  
Old 17.08.2009, 14:45
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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I'm sure that argument (which in its logic is perfectly correct) is of great comfort to the parents of the 6 year old boy that got killed by some pitbulls going home from school some years back.
I never claimed that it would be - but you look into the Italian guy who kept those APBTs in a small space 24x7, devoid of a proper pack leader, discipline and so on and you'll see that he was to blame. It shames me that some dog owners don't know or don't care to act in a manner to make a very happy four-legged friend and keep themselves and others safe at all times.

You also dig into the story of the Rottie recently and that dog was also under questionable ownership.

I'm not saying that there is not a problem - I'm simply stating that some people cannot/will not/don't know how to control dogs and that certain breeds of more headstrong nature are not for the weak pack leader (you, me, etc).

I am sure people kill, maim and injure more of their fellow humans with deliberate and malicious acts - but we've become numb to that, I guess.
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Old 17.08.2009, 14:47
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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Puerile and nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.
If anything is puerile here, then its your attitude of discussion.
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Old 17.08.2009, 14:49
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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1- Unfortunately sometimes they does:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-is-named.html
Can you balance that with the statistics of how many family homes have a happily-coexisting Rottie?

Also bear in mind that this child was a visitor in this home, the owner should have never left the dogs and child together unmonitored (this should be common sense and I would not leave my child alone with any house pet I have - even the hamster).
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Old 17.08.2009, 14:51
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

Which is why there are laws. Which apparantly many feel are for others but not for them.



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I'm simply stating that some people cannot/will not/don't know how to control dogs and that certain breeds of more headstrong nature are not for the weak pack leader (you, me, etc).
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Old 17.08.2009, 15:07
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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Can you balance that with the statistics of how many family homes have a happily-coexisting Rottie?

Also bear in mind that this child was a visitor in this home, the owner should have never left the dogs and child together unmonitored (this should be common sense and I would not leave my child alone with any house pet I have - even the hamster).
Mate,
First of all, bear in mind that we aren't fighting. Its a discussion and different point of views are common.

Of course there is no comparison between this incident and other family homes have a happily-coexisting Rottie, thats why I said "sometimes" it happen.
One also can't say that all the dogs are unleashed in the Swiss forests/parks biting children, but rather would use the term"sometimes" nor that all dog owners are careless. Though one could say that "some" dog owners do not take the responsibility that they should be taking to ensure safety for others, this is a fact, otherwise we wouldn't have been reading about children being killed by dogs in Switzerland.
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  #29  
Old 17.08.2009, 15:16
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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If anything is puerile here, then its your attitude of discussion.
But you don't want to discuss the topic. You want to hijack the thread for a bit of doggybashing in as sensationalist manner as you can manage.

To get back on topic, should dogs be kept on the lead in areas where it is mandated that they must be? Of course, there's no argument against that - it's the law.
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  #30  
Old 17.08.2009, 15:19
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

I'm not fighting, I'm just pointing out that the dogs are (usually) innocent.

You mentioned muzzles, nasa - do you muzzle your dogs? I'm aware that you don't have to but from your first post in this thread, you were not specific about what (or who ) should be muzzled.

Don't forget that your breed was classed as Devil Dog in the 80s or so (IIRC)...

I do find it sad and appauling that attacks take place; statistically, they are not that common.

I also believe that anyone bitten by a dog should report it - olygirl's husband, for example (another case of dog off leash but believed to be under control) should have reported the incident.

FWIW, I could let one of my dogs off the leash all the time - but for his and everyone's comfort, this is usually not the case. My other dog, whilst not likely to attack anyone (unless you're a wasp), is a royal pain the arse and remained on-leash.

One thing not mentioned thusfar is the reaction your dog will likely make when on the leash when confronted with a dog roaming free. Because the leashed dog feels confined, it may act differently as the other dog has freedom to go everywhere (especially behind the leashed dog). This is yet another reason to have both dogs on the leash.
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Old 17.08.2009, 15:26
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

People walking their dogs and letting them off the leash (and out of their own control) realy **** me off big-time!

I offered to take a friends dog for its regular walk - until she told me that should I see a dog approaching unleashed, I better take hers off its leash too - otherwise the free dog will attack the leashed one! No ways do I take those type of risks!

Some people in my village let their dog out their front door to go do his thing at night......and he savaged an elderly almost blind dog whose elderly owner was walking him on a leash! Oh so the owners came dashing out on hearing the ruckus and screaming going on - and they paid all the vet bills - but the poor old mutt that was savaged, for no reason ......

When I ride my bicycle around - and middle aged ladies are walking their little dogs (off lead).... I get these tornadoes rushing to bite my feet or tyres!

When I`m the leader of this country one day ...... Cats will be restricted to one castrated/neutered per family, claws removed, with a yearly licence fee of Sfr1,000.

Dogs off leashes - in the vicinity of other beings (or in forests) will be shot.

The reason this country (used?) to function so well?...... People used to obey the laws. Now, who cares? It`s all about Personal Satisfaction.
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Old 17.08.2009, 16:08
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

Okay Okay. But still respectful cat owners wouldn't let their cat roam freely either. They can also be bad for the animals (birds, small mammals [1]). I mean come on why rules for dogs and not for cats? Cats can also kill animals and can also get shot. I can understand the leash but should then also be for cats when they go outside. I would like to say that I am not against leashing dogs it's quite normal to do so in the city or when people are around but it's not bad for some dogs run around a bit in an open area. Of course, it's not cool when the dog scares bikers.

I don't live in Switzerland currently moving later this year but are their any regions where dogs can freely run a bit around? Like some (bordered) open space, maybe?

And yes, I hate cats since they scratched open my skin once which had to be stitched. At home we always had beagles as dog and they were never really bitey. It's all about how they are nurtured just like for cats.

[1] When I lived in New Zealand my flatmate had a cat which came with a killed bird every few days.

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  #33  
Old 17.08.2009, 16:25
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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People walking their dogs and letting them off the leash (and out of their own control) realy **** me off big-time!

I offered to take a friends dog for its regular walk - until she told me that should I see a dog approaching unleashed, I better take hers off its leash too - otherwise the free dog will attack the leashed one! No ways do I take those type of risks!

Some people in my village let their dog out their front door to go do his thing at night......and he savaged an elderly almost blind dog whose elderly owner was walking him on a leash! Oh so the owners came dashing out on hearing the ruckus and screaming going on - and they paid all the vet bills - but the poor old mutt that was savaged, for no reason ......

When I ride my bicycle around - and middle aged ladies are walking their little dogs (off lead).... I get these tornadoes rushing to bite my feet or tyres!

When I`m the leader of this country one day ...... Cats will be restricted to one castrated/neutered per family, claws removed, with a yearly licence fee of Sfr1,000.

Dogs off leashes - in the vicinity of other beings (or in forests) will be shot.

The reason this country (used?) to function so well?...... People used to obey the laws. Now, who cares? It`s all about Personal Satisfaction.
Now look, I've got some extraordinairy news for this thread. Please make sure you are seated before reading.

I have lived in England up until 2 years ago, I walked regularly in parks and along footpaths and came up against numerous dogs being walked by their owners and I have not been maimed. Im not kidding. It's as if for some reason, people just sort of accepted that dogs in the majority are not vicious killers ready to murder at the first opportunity. I admit, in certain cases, they were muzzled, as they have to be under the Dangerous Dogs Act in England, but in general they wander free with their owners. Will wonders never cease.

Cats are harmless. Dogs being leashed, well the in-the-woods thing I can sort of see. I dont agree with it but I understand where they are coming from, but honestly from the responses on this thread you would think every dog alive is like Cujo.

NOTE: My post is made with an element of humor to get the point across before anyone loses it!
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  #34  
Old 17.08.2009, 16:29
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

MikeB

Please keep your humour under control and leashed. It might savage someone. We don´t want that now do we.......


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Now look, I've got some extraordinairy news for this thread. Please make sure you are seated before reading.

I have lived in England up until 2 years ago, I walked regularly in parks and along footpaths and came up against numerous dogs being walked by their owners and I have not been maimed. Im not kidding. It's as if for some reason, people just sort of accepted that dogs in the majority are not vicious killers ready to murder at the first opportunity. I admit, in certain cases, they were muzzled, as they have to be under the Dangerous Dogs Act in England, but in general they wander free with their owners. Will wonders never cease.

Cats are harmless. Dogs being leashed, well the in-the-woods thing I can sort of see. I dont agree with it but I understand where they are coming from, but honestly from the responses on this thread you would think every dog alive is like Cujo.

NOTE: My post is made with an element of humor to get the point across before anyone loses it!
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  #35  
Old 17.08.2009, 16:43
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

Strange how folk can produce stats and headlines to support their viewpoint. Whether dogs bite is not relevant to MD's thread, but the failure of some dog owners to follow the laws on when dogs should be on a lead and personally I don't get it. The sign says dog on a lead, on the lead they should be. In open country side, let your dogs run as long as they can be trusted and if in doubt, always recall and put them on a lead to avoid any potential trouble....how difficult is is
As for the biting sensationalist, I would like to chip in my 2p's worth. I have been bitten by ANIMALS 4 times, twice by rabbits, once by a hamster, and once by a dog (a stray caught in a barbed wire fence when I tried to get it out). So to keep thing in 'off topic' context, by my stats I should be more concerned about snarling rodents than dogs.... and I'm sure someone out there in geekland with more time and interest than I will find supporting evidence.... but don't post it here there's a good geek

Way to go Smokey, nothing like a good well rounded and reasonable statement.... and that was nothing like it. Pray tell who will police you roving band of gun toting vigilantees? I can think of many thing more deserving of some buck shot than poor Rover out for a walk like, the French, people who don't use deoderant, accordion players.... mind you that narrows it back down to the French again... fire at will
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Old 17.08.2009, 16:52
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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Now look, I've got some extraordinairy news for this thread. Please make sure you are seated before reading.

I have lived in England up until 2 years ago, I walked regularly in parks and along footpaths and came up against numerous dogs being walked by their owners and I have not been maimed. Im not kidding. It's as if for some reason, people just sort of accepted that dogs in the majority are not vicious killers ready to murder at the first opportunity. I admit, in certain cases, they were muzzled, as they have to be under the Dangerous Dogs Act in England, but in general they wander free with their owners. Will wonders never cease.

Cats are harmless. Dogs being leashed, well the in-the-woods thing I can sort of see. I dont agree with it but I understand where they are coming from, but honestly from the responses on this thread you would think every dog alive is like Cujo.

NOTE: My post is made with an element of humor to get the point across before anyone loses it!
I have some extraordinary news for you too. When I lived in England I was bitten while jogging by a dog not on a leash. You might want to read this post or even this old thread:

Big dogs not on a leash in public places.
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  #37  
Old 17.08.2009, 17:07
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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I have some extraordinary news for you too. When I lived in England I was bitten while jogging by a dog not on a leash. You might want to read this post or even this old thread:

Big dogs not on a leash in public places.
Your right. And I was wrong to make light of such a situation.

All Dogs should be on a tight leash at all times. and all cats should be mandatorily declawed.

Last edited by Mikers; 17.08.2009 at 17:08. Reason: needed to change it
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Old 17.08.2009, 17:33
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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I don't live in Switzerland currently moving later this year but are their any regions where dogs can freely run a bit around? Like some (bordered) open space, maybe?
First let's be clear about one thing: in Switzerland dogs have the right to be off lead while under the control of their owners, unless in an area signed as on-lead, or so designated by the general rules of the Gemeinde, as explained by Swissbob in post 17. In areas where restrictions apply (such as the situation in the OP) dogs must be on lead - but in the absence of restrictions, off-lead under control is allowed.

This is reinforced by Article 71 of the Animal Welfare Law of 1 Sept 2008, which states:

"Hunde müssen täglich im Freien und entsprechend ihrem Bedürfnis ausgeführt werden. Soweit möglich sollen sie sich dabei auch unangeleint bewegen können."

http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/455_1/a71.html

As any dog owner knows, it is very important for a dog to have off-lead exercise daily. This could be accomplished in many ways, it is up to the owner to determine the best and safest way (for the dog and for other people) to exercise. The key here is "Soweit möglich..." A dog should be exercised off lead if possible. The 'if possible' bit refers to the dog's training, and the particular situation.

I know many dogs whose focus and recall are absolutely rock-solid. These dogs are so well trained they don't need to be on lead, as they are 100% under the control of their owners at all times. A dog trotting along at his owner's side, minding his own business is not only allowed in law, but encouraged. There is no reason to assume that the dog is anything other than well trained and under control.

But having the right to be off lead does not give one the right to bother others.

With rights come responsibility. It's all about common sense and respect for others, really. Allowing a dog to run up up to another dog, or another person, without permission from the other person or owner, is wrong. Ask permission before allowing your dog to approach another dog or person - it's that simple.

The problem we are discussing in this thread is that some owners - and I do believe it is a only small minority - understand the right, but not the responsibility.

If one's dog has less than perfect recall, the 'if possible' bit applies. A responsible owner whose dogs is not reliable keeps the dog on lead in well trafficked areas, and if necessary finds alternative places for off-lead exercise and socialization. And keeps working to improve recall.


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Now look, I've got some extraordinairy news for this thread. Please make sure you are seated before reading.

(snip...)
Along those same lines (albeit less humorously put ) the BVet has published the findings of a University of Geneva study looking at the change in how the media has portrayed animals: 'Von Liebling zum Monster: die Beziehung des Menschen zum Tier under der Lupe'.

The media has a lot to answer for.

http://www.bvet.admin.ch/themen/tier...x.html?lang=de

(click on the pdf file of the same name.)

I also recommend reading 'Das Pitbull Syndrom' by Stephen Burkhart, which looks at how dogs have become the scapegoat du jour . As society faces a perceived increase in threats/dangers/complexities about which we are powerless to act, we tend to displace those fears onto something else - and dogs fit the bill nicely.

Last edited by meloncollie; 17.08.2009 at 17:50.
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  #39  
Old 17.08.2009, 18:16
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

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Okay Okay. But still respectful cat owners wouldn't let their cat roam freely either. They can also be bad for the animals (birds, small mammals [1]). I mean come on why rules for dogs and not for cats? Cats can also kill animals and can also get shot. I can understand the leash but should then also be for cats when they go outside. I would like to say that I am not against leashing dogs it's quite normal to do so in the city or when people are around but it's not bad for some dogs run around a bit in an open area. Of course, it's not cool when the dog scares bikers.

I don't live in Switzerland currently moving later this year but are their any regions where dogs can freely run a bit around? Like some (bordered) open space, maybe?

And yes, I hate cats since they scratched open my skin once which had to be stitched. At home we always had beagles as dog and they were never really bitey. It's all about how they are nurtured just like for cats.

[1] When I lived in New Zealand my flatmate had a cat which came with a killed bird every few days.
Interesting point. Some years ago we lived in an apartment next to people that owned two cats. They were allowed to roam free. Unfortunately, our balcony was the only way for the cats to get to the road. Had they used it as a direct transit and nothing more we may not have had a problem. Unfortunately both my wife and son are allergic to cats and it really p***ed us off when we found the cats in our apartment (the previous tenants used to feed them) or having dug out our potted plants. We took measures to prevent the cats from using our balcony and were subject to the most strident abuse from our neighbours. It finally culminated in me getting a threatening letter from the animal protection people!! I had always owned pets as a child (and it was before we got our dogs), and I felt really hard done by. The justification by the animal protection people was that it is in a cat's nature to roam and they should be allowed to do so. My view is that this is fine, as long as it does not impinge on anyone else's lifestyle (which in this case it did). If the neighbours did not have sufficient facilities to allow their cats to wander, they should not have had them in the first place. In the end, we had to move.

There is no doubt in my mind that cats get an easier ride than they deserve.
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Old 17.08.2009, 18:59
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Re: Dogs off Leash in the Forest (Kt. AG)

Yes, I agree with you Snoopy. That's how our beagle (always make smile those beagles) was called Please don't misunderstand me I don't have issues with dogs on a leash when it's required. I thought you had to keep the dogs on leash everywhere but that's apparently not so.

And yeah, it might be in the cats nature to roam because they aren't breed like dogs to not have such nature. If you look at the wolves they are roaming in packs too.
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