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Old 07.01.2019, 13:06
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Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

Hi

It's been both many years since my arrival in Switzerland, (18) and the last time I posted on the forum, (7).

We own a beautiful house near Rapperswil but have decided to sell up after tens years and move to a more rural location. We are searching for a small property, 120-150sqm, with a minimum of 2000sqm of agricultural land in a plan to become self sufficient. We hope to have an orchard, vegetable garden, polytunnel, chickens, bees...
Anyone who has looked into purchasing property in Switzerland knows it's very pricey, 'bau' land is extremely expensive but agricultural land is not, as there are stringent rules about its usage.

My husband changed jobs two years ago and commutes to Canton Zug everyday. It's a long drive, so after lots of consideration and research we decided to concentrate our search in Oberaegeri. It's an area with a large number of farms but also a large expat community and would be a 15 minute drive to work for my husband. Hence it is an ideal location.

If you are a home owner in this area and are looking to sell up in the near future, I would love to hear from you. Or perhaps you rent in the area and know of a property that fits my criteria.

I would also love to hear from other people who are interested in becoming self sufficient in Switzerland. I'm sure there are others out there.

Thank you for reading this post, I would welcome any information about farms/property/being self sufficient that you think are relevant to my search.
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Old 07.01.2019, 13:33
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

Highly unlikely that any members here will own agricultural property, you should try looking (and advertising) in Tierwelt magazine. Properties like this do come up as small holder farmers die or retire and their children are no longer interested in agriculture.

Good luck, it is fun, but it's very hard work!
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Old 07.01.2019, 13:49
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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Highly unlikely that any members here will own agricultural property, you should try looking (and advertising) in Tierwelt magazine. Properties like this do come up as small holder farmers die or retire and their children are no longer interested in agriculture.

Good luck, it is fun, but it's very hard work!
Only a very small amount of agricultural land will come up with a house as I believe 2000m2 is the most that can be sold for non farming purposes. I looked at some land in AG 700m2 Bau land & 1600m2 farm land. The Bau Land was priced 100 times the farm land.
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Old 07.01.2019, 13:52
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

Just in case you haven't run into this:

Do you qualify to purchase land held under the BGBB?

If so, your search would be somewhat simpler. Well, there still is the fact that such properties in the very much sought after Aegrisee area are scarce as hen's teeth, but once found...

If you do not qualify to purchase land held under the BGBB the searce gets complicated. You have to find a property that has already been taken out, but where the kind of farming you want to do is nonetheless allowed. Not an easy task... I know because I've been looking for over 10 years.

If you have already researched the BGBB, then ignore my post.

Either way, good luck with your search.
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Old 07.01.2019, 14:03
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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Hi


I would also love to hear from other people who are interested in becoming self sufficient in Switzerland. I'm sure there are others out there.

Thank you for reading this post, I would welcome any information about farms/property/being self sufficient that you think are relevant to my search.
What do you mean by self sufficient?

As in, both of you quitting your day jobs and iving off the fruit of your own land and labour?

Actaully, that is sopmething the OH and myself have been thinking about doing as well in some years time. Buying a small farm, covering a certain percentage of our own needs, and generally saying goodbye to the hamster wheel of salary slavery. Of course with our savings and investments to back us up as a safety net.

If so, why start in Switzerland, one of the most expensive countries in the world?

The same money can buy you much more land in almost any other country of the world, or maybe more wisely, you can buy the same area of land but put the money you save into that safety net.

Plenty of countries out there with nicer climates that Aegeri, more fertile soil than Aegeri, cheaper to hire people to help you out and do the hard shifting that in Aegeri etc etc. Including plenty of countries that still have decent healthcare, safety, stability etc etc.
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Old 07.01.2019, 14:24
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

Thank you all for your responses.
We have been looking for many years as it happens but have only recently decided to concentrate our search in Oberaegeri. It is important that I have something resembling an expat community, I don't want to be totally isolated, surrounded only by Swiss farmers. This I discovered during many of the viewings we've made over the years.
I posted my search on the forum because I know Oberaegeri has a large expat community, thought it was worth a try.
Reasons for remaining in Switzerland...my husband is Swiss with an ageing mother who relies on us, stability, security, plus it's a beautiful place with a lot to offer. I am actually very happy here. My two were born and raised here.
Self sufficient, well as far as possible. One of us would certainly 'give up the day job'. We still have a way to go before we make any such decisions. Finding the right property is our first step.
Thanks again for the replies, I shall look into your suggestions in more detail.
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Old 07.01.2019, 14:57
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

I'm so envious, sounds just like what my husband and I dream of doing. Funnily, his home city (on his passport) is Oberaegeri. When you are all set up, if you want a nice couple to help you now and then on the weekend, let us know.
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Old 07.01.2019, 14:59
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

See this article for a short intro.

Generally speaking this is a cantonal matter, the differences in how the BGBB is implemented can be quite significant. Now, regulations may have changed by last year (meaning the article may be dated, too) take note of any info's age, and find out if they did indeed change.

I think your best starting point is the government, both Federal and Cantonal.

You'll probably also want to learn what it takes to qualify for subsidies, without them your net costs are easily double or more. And you may want to also look into Pacht, a special form of long term rent.
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Old 07.01.2019, 15:30
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

One of the reasons it's so difficult for non-farmers (in the BGBB sense) to purchase farming land is that farming in Switzerland is often not really all that self-sufficient - in many areas subsidies make up a significant portion of a farmer's income.

There is great reluctance to allow land to move from production farming to hobby farming. Not only would that land not be used for the greater good (feeding the nation - although that's subject of a debate worthy of another thread) but also the question of whether your efforts should be subsidized arises.

Sure you can say that you would neither need nor take subsidies. We tried that, and boy did it backfire! Farmers - your future neighbors and perhaps folks who have a say in what goes on locally - often aren't to happy with the notion of hobbyists taking on a production farm and then turning down subsidies, as it creates a scenario where needed subsidies on production farms are questioned.

Another issue you face in the Aegrisee area is that building land values have skyrocketed. I live in a similar area, Ausserschwyz. The Gemeinde would much rather production farming land be turned into development than hobby farming, as developed land adds gazillions to the community coffers whereas hobby farming is sort of the worst of all worlds. You wouldn't farm on a production level, and you wouldn't pay the taxes that the land could generate if developed. As such, I can't recall a single farm in our area that once taken out of the BGBB has gone to hobby farmers. How much tax revenue a property can generate is certainly a factor in granting permits.

(Rumor has it that several of the farmers in my area have already optioned off their farms to developers, against the day when zoning change is allowed. Another reason why farms rarely come on the open marke3t.)

Of course, if you can buy under BGBB restrictions, none of this applies. If that is the case, go forth and be happy.

You might want to cultivate relations with 'Powers That Be' in your area. Most farms change hands word of mouth, these are never advertised. A starting point might be getting involved with the local Bauernverband. In ZG that is:
https://www.zugerbv.ch

And you might get involved in the Zuger Bauerinnen group:
https://zuger-baeuerinnen.ch

(I have no idea of 'future' farmers and farm women are welcomed into those groups, or not. But likely worth a try.)

Heck, you could even go to 'Farm school'. Seriously.
https://www.landfrauen.ch/de/bildung...-fachpruefung/

A firm specializing in agricultural land you might want to connect with is Juckerberatung. There are no properties in ZG at the moment (at present there is only one, in SG. Each year there are usually only a few listings, anywhere), but no stone should be left unturned.
http://www.juckerberatung.ch

And of course let everyone in the village know you are looking - the butcher, baker, candlestick maker. You never know who knows someone who knows someone who...

Again, best of luck with the search.
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Old 07.01.2019, 15:36
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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What do you mean by self sufficient?

As in, both of you quitting your day jobs and iving off the fruit of your own land and labour?

Actaully, that is sopmething the OH and myself have been thinking about doing as well in some years time. Buying a small farm, covering a certain percentage of our own needs, and generally saying goodbye to the hamster wheel of salary slavery. Of course with our savings and investments to back us up as a safety net.

If so, why start in Switzerland, one of the most expensive countries in the world?

The same money can buy you much more land in almost any other country of the world, or maybe more wisely, you can buy the same area of land but put the money you save into that safety net.

Plenty of countries out there with nicer climates that Aegeri, more fertile soil than Aegeri, cheaper to hire people to help you out and do the hard shifting that in Aegeri etc etc. Including plenty of countries that still have decent healthcare, safety, stability etc etc.
Dude, I looked up "sopmething" in the dictionary, hoping to learn a new word!

Husband works in Zug and will enjoy the shorter commute, OP wrote somewhere.
I fully agree, Switzerland is not the best/cheapest/easiest place to fulfill this dream.
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Old 07.01.2019, 18:04
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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Dude, I looked up "sopmething" in the dictionary, hoping to learn a new word!
He learned from the best. Can't name any names but "covfefe" should make it clear enough.
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Old 08.01.2019, 02:12
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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There is great reluctance to allow land to move from production farming to hobby farming. Not only would that land not be used for the greater good (feeding the nation - although that's subject of a debate worthy of another thread) but also the question of whether your efforts should be subsidized arises.
This analysis is spot on.

Nobody is going to encourage hobby farming in Switzerland because farming land is a bit of a holy grail that you can't turn into hobby land that easily. Most European countries will have similar restrictions for similar reasons, but there are countries where 2,000 sqm will fly under the radar because anything under, say 10,000 sqm, doesn't count as a proper farm anyway, or there may actually be land that for historical reasons is still specifically zoned for subsistence farming rather than commercial farming. In Switzerland that sort of land is typically restricted to allotment gardens and typically parcelled down into much smaller plots, but in other countries you may get larger parcels. Typically the lower the population density, the more of this you may find.
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Old 08.01.2019, 07:49
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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And of course let everyone in the village know you are looking - the butcher, baker, candlestick maker. You never know who knows someone who knows someone who...

Again, best of luck with the search.
With so many rules and regulations...it seems like OP really needs it..:-)

OP, what does your Swiss spouse say about these plans? He surely must have a better understanding of how these things work here, no? Use his connections, relatives, friends etc. to get you both closer to your dream. I think a lot of info and tips are easier to get as a native. Good luck.
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Old 08.01.2019, 09:51
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

Thanks again for all your comments.
In the last 5-6 years, we've viewed many properties with 1000-2000sqm of agricultural land, many via Jucker, problem is, as mentioned they are very much in demand. Mostly sell through a bidding system, which invite first round bidders to enter a second round if they want to bid higher. Problem is, there are always a handful of wealthy buyers who are seeking a country retreat and are willing to purchase way over the market value. We must have lost out ten or more times in such circumstances.
Having a Swiss husband certainly aids the search but as is evident, still doesn't make it an easy one. I'm using all the contacts we have and am determined one way or another to make this happen. Certainly don't believe this is a futile search.
Interesting to hear everyone's comments though.
Thanks again
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Old 08.01.2019, 10:16
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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T Problem is, there are always a handful of wealthy buyers who are seeking a country retreat and are willing to purchase way over the market value. We must have lost out ten or more times in such circumstances.
Having a Swiss husband certainly aids the search but as is evident, still doesn't make it an easy one. I'm using all the contacts we have and am determined one way or another to make this happen. Certainly don't believe this is a futile search.
Only ten?

Chance are I might have seen you among the throngs of people viewing the few properties in the area that have come on the market in the last 10 years. At viewings we seem to run into the same faces chasing the same dream, it's almost like a club.

As I am non-EU I've come to believe it is indeed a futile so I have largely given up and turned my attention elsewhere.

Good luck, hope your dream comes true!

---

ETA, with a few more thoughts:

Have you truly closed off looking in other areas? The problem with the Aegrisee area is that there will always be a gazillionaire ready to outbid you for one it's rare gems - as one of the wealthiest parts of Switzerland, Aegri (and pretty much all of ZG) is a mecca for the seriously minted.

Would you consider other communities commutable to work?

There are a few possibilities in AG, SG, ZH and even one in SZ (less land, though), properties that have been listed for quite some time so one assumes that competition is less of an issue.

I fully understand the resistance to compromise when one is searching for the dream. Having made a mistake through compromise on my current house I've stuck to my 'must' list in my search for the dream property - but here I am, a decade plus down the road with nothing. And now being realistic I'm getting too old and creaky for the hobby farm dream. There might be a cautionary tale in there somewhere...

The few folks I know who have managed to find that dream hobby farm are living quite far out, some put up with the commute, some keep a flat in Zürich for the employed spouse during the week.

What is your timeline? Can you keep looking another year, 5 years, 10+? Or would compromise on the area be palatable if it meant finding the property soon?

Again, all the best.

Last edited by meloncollie; 08.01.2019 at 14:26.
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Old 08.01.2019, 12:21
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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Only ten?

Chance are I might have seen you among the throngs of people viewing the few properties in the area that have come on the market in the last 10 years. At viewings we seem to run into the same faces chasing the same dream, it's almost like a club.

.
That made me smile and I'm sure it's 100% accurate because it feels so even when you're looking for an apartment or family house in some specific places which you chose because of proximity to work places and good schools etc...These are some of the disadvantages of living in such a rich and overly regulated country (might I add the population density and geographical characteristics too). But I think one has to compromise a lot and never look back once they made the purchase.
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Old 08.01.2019, 14:19
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

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That made me smile and I'm sure it's 100% accurate because it feels so even when you're looking for an apartment or family house in some specific places which you chose because of proximity to work places and good schools etc...These are some of the disadvantages of living in such a rich and overly regulated country (might I add the population density and geographical characteristics too). But I think one has to compromise a lot and never look back once they made the purchase.
Not sure if this exists in Switzerland, but my stepson is doing agricultural school in Germany right now and that means in some years time he may be looking for a farm to lease or buy. He says a big thing going on in Germany these days are what they call a "Hofgemeinschaft". Several startup farmers typically get together, or maybe even a mix of starters and experienced small farmers get together, and they lease or if they get luicky, even outright buy a farm that they then run together.

It's not necessarily like a big family but more typically each member has their area and thing. In fact typically they don't even need to all live on site, but in some cases they will convert large old farmhouses into appartments to they can all live there. This is especially popular with those who don't actually want to be full time farmers but have some day job elsewhere, but who still want to be more professional than mere hoibby farmers. It also means that they can collectively bid for larger farms as it is especially the small farms that are in short supply and thus disproportionately overpriced.
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Old 08.01.2019, 16:32
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Re: Looking for a property in Oberaegeri with 2000sqm+ of agricultural land

I'm holding out for that dream property. If I can tick 8 out of 10 boxes, I'd be happy. I'm not fixed on a farm house per se, it could be any kind of property, the land and location are what counts.
I'm prepared to wait, who knows, there may be changes in the market. I've been here 18 years, I know the country quite well, we've viewed properties in most of the Cantons meloncollie listed. My gut feeling was that no matter how keen I am to make this a reality, I can't compromise on buying in an area that feels 'right'.
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